thoughts on 3betting when you have 30-50bbs

[sheetsworld]

30-35 bbs is a very tough stack facing a raise, and you should evaluate your holdings in only 2 groups, with a possible 3rd group in a particular case...

1.Those with which you are willing to get all your chips in preflop against the open raiser. (You will be geting a bit less than 2-1 if you get 4 bet)

and

2.All other possible starting hands.

If you have a group 1 hand then you can reraise pre against all players, with the added vig of giving the impression that you do have enough to fold, which may get some marginal holdings to 4 bet you.

If you have a group 2 hand you can reraise too, but there is no difference between 33 and 62 off in this spot because you are folding to a 4 bet anyway. However, group 2 hands should only be reraised with when the original raiser has a large gap between his opening range and his 4 bet range.

Jon you assume that the guy is opening wide with top 25% which is meaningful, but it is quite important what % of this 25% he will be 4 betting. There are guys like this out there, players who dont mind opening anything but fold to any pressure. The people who correctly tighten their open/4 bet gap require that we introduce a ...

Group 3: Hands that you would not mind getting allin with getting 2-1 against someone capable of 4 betting wide. These hands very well may include stuff like 33 and some suited broadways maybe whatever.

So in general, when dealing with the very difficult 30-35 bb stacks, you really can reraise 33 against some people for f/e only and for others actually because of the possibility that there is some showdown value if you get 4 bet.

Considering ths particular stage of the tournament, I feel that people opening for raises actually do have a pretty wide opening range, and they are usually quite scared of reraises, so I would be inclined to 3 bet more than usual.

I dont like calling with this stack at all unless I have a monster hoping to get a squeeze from behind or a cbet from the opener a huge % of the time, but again I prefer to reraise premiums here as well. I think you overestimate how often you can "stack someone here on a good flop for me"


sheets

[Pudge714]

Sheets and L4TV basically solved this thread.

Gobbo,
You have just as good implied odds as you would if you were in the BB so I think our chip outlay is out of proportion to a reasonable expectation.

[ASPoker8]

I generally just fold 22-55 when I am out of position and dont have set odds and facing a competant player.

Is this a leak?

[WarDekar]

[ QUOTE ]
I generally just fold 22-55 when I am out of position and dont have set odds and facing a competant player.

Is this a leak?

[/ QUOTE ]

No, and I actually was soooooo close to open-folding 88 UTG last night at a FT, but couldn't get myself to. (NOTE: I should have)

[IWEARGOGGLES]

I'm split on this situation because calling/floating costs just as much as 3-betting (which folds a huge part of people's ranges late in tournaments like this) and it is MUCH more difficult to play post flop after flatting. Factor in squeezing, etc etc and I'd rather 3-bet from the button and flat out of the blinds.

[betgo]

Let's look at this problem mathematically. 33 is 46% against a top 25% hand. If you flat call, you are getting 2-1 pot odds, assuming 1xBB in ante, and you play the hand in position. Sometimes the blinds overcall or reraise/squeeze. This seems like a marginally favorable situation if you are comfortable playing 33 with shallow money.

If you reraise/fold, you risk 7-8xBB to pick up a 5xBB pot. What do you do if you get flat called and miss your set? This approach may not be cEV-.

Once you reraise, it folding to a 4-bet the correct play? You are putting in about 38% of the money to a push. 33 is 38% against a top 8% hand, which would assume villain pushes 1/3 of the time. The fact that the decision is close is an argument for not reraising.

Incidently my calculations show a 3-bet overbet push is maybe very slightly cEV+. You get called about 30% of the time by raiser or the blinds and you are about 33% to win if called. Your expected loss if called is about twice your gain if you steal, so it is a very close big gamble.

I think reraise/fold is popular because it avoids difficult decisions and minimizes the chances of busting out. If you are going to reraise, reraise/call is probably slightly better. The overbet push gets more folds, but with a reraise/call strategy, you get away from the hand when there are 2 allins in front of you or something.

[d2themfi]

shrug, i usually just fold in these spots. If he is openign 25% of his hands you really dont have implied odds, after u factor in the amount of times the blinds squeeze and u fold, or you call and are an underdog to their range.

And playing postflop with a small pair vs an aggressive player with shallow stacks is hard to play profitably. Position is important, but we are pretty shallow which negates some of our positional advantage. Idk, i think it is best to fold 33 here

[MrTimCaum]

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shrug, i usually just fold in these spots. If he is openign 25% of his hands you really dont have implied odds, after u factor in the amount of times the blinds squeeze and u fold, or you call and are an underdog to their range.

And playing postflop with a small pair vs an aggressive player with shallow stacks is hard to play profitably. Position is important, but we are pretty shallow which negates some of our positional advantage. Idk, i think it is best to fold 33 here

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hey there, you did a much better job of explaining this than i did. i wish i was better at getting my point across [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img]