1/2 live hand - curious about a read/tell

[David Nicoson]

If you don't know what a mannerism means for this particular villain, it's not a tell; it's noise. Just ignore it.

I'm OK with the preflop call as long as the other players have something worth winning. Our relative position is good. The other callers sit between the preflop raiser and us.

But we should play it basically like any other suited one-gapper. If our top pair happens to be good, then that's a surprising bonus.

[Kala1928]

how about just calling the flop if you think he doesnt have anything

[novel20]

OP you are thinking too much. The live 1/2 game is very easy.

[mxp2004]

In 1/2 NL, I think betting patterns are more reliable than physical tells. I play in this game at the Borgata a lot, and so here are some of my observations.

First, an open-raise to $15 from MP by a player who hasn't played a lot of hands is a strong indication of a big hand. A typical opening raise from the average player is closer to $10 or $12. In my experience, the higher the initial raise from the player opening the pot from an early position, the stronger the hand. Here -- where we are not talking about a LAG player -- the raise almost certainly means JJ+, AK, or AQ.

Second, players do continuation bet often. But the flop bet has a higher probability of being "air" when the flop is taken heads up, not 4-ways, and when there are not several players still to act.

Also, the size of the bet here is unusual for a non-LAG player. In my experience, $25 is like a dividing line for a lot of players in the 1/2 NL game at the Borgata. Any bet less than that can be a stab at the pot; any bet more than that means, "I have a hand."

Third, the push is a clincher. Again, the typical tight player (LAGs are different) in this game is not pushing with two overcards and a flush draw. Even though we know that such a hand is the favorite against a pair to win after the flop, you're not going to find a lot of players in the 1/2 game at the Borgata who know this, too. I'd need a lot of evidence that the bettor knows what he's doing (if we're talking about a tight player) before I committed all of my chips with just a top pair hand.

I think you should have considered just calling here on the flop. You weren't going to push a better hand off, and you were unlikely to be called by a lower pair. OTOH, if this was a continuation bet by the pre-flop raiser, they will often check/fold the turn if they still have air once you've called a sizable bet.

Finally, I think you neglected to take into account the presence of the flush draw. Let's say MP leads this flop for $40, the other two players fold, and then you just call. Now that you're heads up, the flush draw is probably your friend. If it hits on the turn, you can represent the flush with a bet. While C/R preflop may not get a tight player to laydown a big pair, the dreaded flush often can because the tight player often thinks that everyone chases these draws. Unless he's a tight and a calling station, an obvious draw hitting is a good bluffing opportunity.

[radii]

Thanks all. All the responses make sense, and basically I think that in this(and many other) situations I keyed on a couple things and didn't slow down and really think about everything going on in the hand, getting caught up in the live action basically, not thinking about as simple a thing as "each tell is player dependent" and ignoring the fact that the guy was playing tight, or the fact that in a 4 way pot his bet likely means more, etc etc. I'll definitely have a better game plan next time I go in January with a little more experience [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]

[jack frost]

This paragraph is key. MP raises an unopened pot to $15, no reads on him, he doesn't play many hands, & you are in horrible position with KJ. I'd give him some respect & consider folding in this spot.

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In A.C. 15$ is a standard pre flop raise at allot of 1/2 tales. Second I think calling here is allot better than raising after all with your read he is only drawing to 6 outs. Allot of the players in A.C. use dumb signals like weak=strong and such given the pot odds after your raise I probably call but I think the flop raise was pretty bad I think you can asume he probably isn't raising with any 2 sutied cards so you can narrow it down to A-ks or a-q suited. I would have been pretty I was beaten when he shoved and this is most people say k-j is a bad hand to play oop for a raise.

[jjshabado]

[ QUOTE ]
First, an open-raise to $15 from MP by a player who hasn't played a lot of hands is a strong indication of a big hand. A typical opening raise from the average player is closer to $10 or $12. In my experience, the higher the initial raise from the player opening the pot from an early position, the stronger the hand. Here -- where we are not talking about a LAG player -- the raise almost certainly means JJ+, AK, or AQ.

[/ QUOTE ]

Good post. I'll add that its fairly common for some weak-tight players to make particularly big opening raises with TT, JJ, QQ, and sometimes AK because they're scared to play them on the flop. They'd rather win $5 then have to decide what to do when an overcard hits (and they'll sadly tell you that an A always hits). These are fun people to keep an eye out for.

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
I think my biggest shock at 1/2 was the fact that people just had exactly what it looked/sounded like they had almost every time, and would say or do things that 100% gave away their hands before the action was done.

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I think what you found was that in small pots where people had little at stake, that they looked weak when they were weak. After all, if a guy has 89s in a limped pot and the flop is K25r, he's done and he doesn't care if anybody sees it. If he has AKo and raise 4xbb in EP but get 6 callers and the flop is 7s8s9h, then he's pretty much done there too. And he doesn't care much if anybody knows it if he doesn't plan to make a continuation bet into that crowded field of preflop cold callers.

But when a guy has what he thinks is a hand worth felting, and he knows that others are watching, then he will act the opposite of what he has in the hopes that those watching him will misread his holding. Watch guys in big pots next time. Pots that they want to win. They will be the ones more likely to be unconciously acting weak when they're strong and strong when they're weak.