$1/2 UTG

[Jeff76]

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To the people saying to bet less than 20$ here and fold

[/ QUOTE ]I said to bet less than $20, but I never said anything about folding.

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don't you think that at 1/2nl good players are easily going to see that are waiving a white flag and asking them take the pot away from you?

[/ QUOTE ]I am happy if someone sees my bet as "waiving a white flag" and am OK if they try to take the pot away from me.

[Artsemis]

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I am happy if someone sees my bet as "waiving a white flag" and am OK if they try to take the pot away from me.

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You sure about that? Even the two middle players? They may not be just taking it away from you, afterall.

[Jeff76]

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I am happy if someone sees my bet as "waiving a white flag" and am OK if they try to take the pot away from me.

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You sure about that? Even the two middle players? They may not be just taking it away from you, afterall.

[/ QUOTE ]If they have a real hand, then I'm happy I didn't make a bigger bet and inflate the pot. I didn't say I wasn't going to fold anywhere in the hand. However, if he wants to bluff me with air, he'd better be prepared to invest a lot of chips- in fact, once I call on the flop and it becomes clear I have a real hand, he's not going to have a good idea what he is going to have to risk to win the pot. Potentially he might have to risk his whole stack. I, on the other hand, probably won't be stacking off here and therefore can win the pot while only willing to risk a portion of my stack.

In fact, by betting less and keeping the pot smaller, he is now having to risk (potentially) a lot more in relation to the size of the pot once he sees that this pot is going to be contested by me. That is only a good thing for me.

It is true that a player could get me off my hand with air; he could also do it if I bet more. If betting less makes him more likely to bluff then I am OK with that, as he is basing his bluffing strategy on a false belief (that I have a weak hand). Once this strategy becomes apparent adjusting to his play will not be difficult and I will be able to exploit him fairly easily in future hands.

[Albert Moulton]

Try for a limp/reraise preflop to represent a hand like aces, and be happy when/if you take it down preflop or with a cb.

MP1 and MP2 are probably playing fit or fold with small pairs or suited connectors. I suppose they could have AK/AQ/AJ, too.

I think a cb for $25 is good. If you get one caller, c/c the turn, then block at the river as a fairly standard line. You might get a weaker ace, for example, to call the cb and call your river bet.

You have to fold if MP1 or MP2 end up coming over the top on the flop.

If BB c/r's, you may have to go to the felt with TPTK since he might do this with any top pair, or even some kind of bluff.

[Jeff76]

A general question- if we are raised on the flop, would we have rather bet $15 or $25? Or to say it differently, assuming the raise is 3x our bet, would we rather go to the turn with $150 behind and a $120 pot, or $125 behind and a $180 pot?

[Renton]

check make a lot of money here.

I'd check it at least 1/3 of the time, maybe more than half.

[Jeff76]

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check make a lot of money here.

I'd check it at least 1/3 of the time, maybe more than half.

[/ QUOTE ]Interesting- not challenging this, but what hands do you get value from by checking that you won't if you bet- or what hands to you save yourself money from when you're behind?

[King Spew]

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It won't take much to fold the tighties if they truly have nothing, and a small bet might embolden the LAG, and the board is very dry. Thus, I'd bet the smallest amount I would cbet if missed, which is 1/2 PSB.

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[threads13]

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A general question- if we are raised on the flop, would we have rather bet $15 or $25? Or to say it differently, assuming the raise is 3x our bet, would we rather go to the turn with $150 behind and a $120 pot, or $125 behind and a $180 pot?

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This is a very important point in the matter.

If you get raised by one of the tight players you are absolutely hating it. If they raise you to 3x you are still getting decent odds but the size of your initial bet changes things dramatically. If you bet 25 and are raised to 75 you will have approx. 125 left in a post of 180. This makes calling not a great option because you are still going to be in a tough spot on the turn. Pushing isn't great because a bluff doesn't call. Folding isn't awesome either because you are potentially getting pushed off TPTK in an already big pot with not a lot behind. All 3 options are not the greatest.

However, if you bet 15 and get raised to 45 you can still call the raise without being in such a terrible spot on the turn. If you call the raise you will have about 150 behind in a post 100. This is much more manageable than having 125 in a pot of 180.


For those who say that 15 is too weak and that you will get bluffed off your hand - sit in a tight players shoes. You call a tight players UTG raise with a PP or maybe AK/AQ and the flop comes A85. Now that tight player bets half of the pot into a 3 way pot. What could the tight player have? What are you bluffing him off of? Now imagine he bets 3/4 the pot? Does that really change anything as far as his range goes? It still is a show of strength. The tight player has a hand. Why are you picking this spot to bluff?
You aren't!

If hero bets out 15 in this pot he gets all of the same benefits as if he bet more than 20 with less of the risk. He is still putting his stack out there, but he isn't putting himself in as tough of a situation if he gets raised.

As far as Kurt asking how this made me rethink things... there is some second level stuff that can come into play. I will leave it up to you to dig further. This is once we get into read-land and isn't appropriate for purpose of this post. It would only muddy the waters.

[David Nicoson]

[ QUOTE ]
A general question- if we are raised on the flop, would we have rather bet $15 or $25? Or to say it differently, assuming the raise is 3x our bet, would we rather go to the turn with $150 behind and a $120 pot, or $125 behind and a $180 pot?

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Along those lines, look how much different the pot size is if we choose a different opener. Assuming for a moment we get the same number of callers.

6 -> 25
8 -> 33
10-> 41