Odd Quiz, introductory concepts pt. 1.

[BobboFitos]

1. You raise in the CO with A4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] to 7, 1/2 blinds with 250 behind. Villain calls you. Blinds fold.

Flop (17) comes K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Villain shows you he has KT[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. (You know he has that hand, he does not know you know his hand)

a. Do you bet?
b. If so, why?
c. If so, how much?
d. If you bet, how do you proceed on the turn, assuming he calls?

2. You raise in the CO with K8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] to 7, 1/2 blinds with 250 behind. Villain calls you. Blinds fold.

Flop (17) comes K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]. Villain shows you he has KT[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. (You know he has that hand, he does not know you know his hand)

a. Do you bet?
b. If so, why?
c. If so, how much?
d. If you bet, how do you proceed on the turn, assuming he calls?

[Fonkey123]

I'd probably double barrel the A4ss with standard bets, and with the K8 I'd bet the flop, and c/r turn given that I'm still ahead.

[ttgirl]

i bet flop to build the flop since we're 50/50 at this point and will not get much action in an essentially empty pot. i bet about 15, but take a free card on the turn if we dont improve.

2) i bet 15 again for balance purposes. i then double barrel the turn unless it is a 9 or 10 for value since most people arent calling with k10 to fold top pair in a medium sized pot on a drawy board.

i should probably have the same line for both, but it seems like villain is likely to call our double barrels in both hands, so why not bet only when we have an equity edge? im curious as to what you do in both cases.

[orange]

odds...something i'm not good at. i'll skip this one :P

[BobboFitos]

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i bet flop to build the flop since we're 50/50 at this point and will not get much action in an essentially empty pot. i bet about 15, but take a free card on the turn if we dont improve.

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I feel the need to correct you. A4s is a dog, 45-55 to KT on that flop. Also, we are OOP, thereby giving us the option of taking a freebie nonexistent, unless villain obliges us.

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2) i bet 15 again for balance purposes. i then double barrel the turn unless it is a 9 or 10 for value since most people arent calling with k10 to fold top pair in a medium sized pot on a drawy board.


[/ QUOTE ]
Pretend balancing does not matter. We are looking for the optimal line, especially given we know what he has.

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i should probably have the same line for both, but it seems like villain is likely to call our double barrels in both hands, so why not bet only when we have an equity edge? im curious as to what you do in both cases.

[/ QUOTE ]
Why should you have the same line for both? Elaborate. The second thing you mentioned seems much more dead on.

[steel108]

I think reads are important here. Vs a solid player I'm firing all 3 streets big, 80% pot, (doubt he calls the turn though) in hand 1.

In hand 2 I would play it the same way as Hand 1. I'm not very creative. Wouldn't it be nice to have complete information [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[frankpark9]

1. it depends on the villian... how aggreive is he? is he the type who raise since there's a flush draw out there? most reg will raise on that flop if you bet. so i would probably check call... and maybe lead the turn for a small amount if i miss my draw. it all depends on the read.

2. i would definatly bet this flop, most ppl wont' fold tp to a c-bet if he raises you then i would just flat call and CR on him on the turn if a blank comes but i would definatly bet this flop.

[ttgirl]

i thought villain called out of the blinds. that changes everything. i still lead 15 on the flop in the first case, but then reads come into effect. if hes not the kind of player who can make a top pair weak kicker type laydown to 3 barrels or if he likes to make hero calls im going to bet about 25-30 and then shutdown on the river if we dont improve. my logic behind this is hes going to talk himself into making a big call and we have the implied odds to make this an ev play if he doesnt fold. on the other hand, if the villain is the kind to make big laydowns then i probably fire about 35-40 on the turn, and make a fairly big river bet against him. in the second hand, i do the opposite and valuebet him twice if hell call down and only once if hes prone to make folds to 3barrels. someone mentioned check raising the turn on the second hand, but villain shouldnt be likely to bet the turn unless hes willing to get it all in since it seems like such a great spot to check raise a draw.

the reason i think you should have the same line for both is so that your oppononets are forced to play a guessing game against you and basically submit to game theory in order to make their decisions, since theres no way to distinguish when you're bluffing and when you're valuebetting. this will result in you getting paid in awkward spots that you shouldn't and be able to incorporate aejones' theory of range merging into your game by valuebetting top pair weak kicker when draws miss. if your opponents never call, then theyre making a mistake, but if they call too frequently they're also making a mistake. this way, they just have to randomly decide to call based on factors other than our line which puts them in alot of trouble.

some of this is convoluted and im still thinking about what lines id like to take, but id like to hear if you agree with any of this.

[TronSpecial]

for 1. since i know he isnt that strong im just going to make him fold at some point unless i hit my hand.
for 2. idk just bet each street not too hard though.

[ttgirl]

dont you think your play is going to be a bit obvious if you pot 3 streets when you're semi bluffing and looking for folds and bet lightly on each street with made hands?