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Old 11-25-2007, 02:01 AM
JJH3984 JJH3984 is offline
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Default 8/16 TT Flops a Set against a Nit and a Weak Passive

I'm in a fairly nitty 8/16 game at the Wynn. Three bad locals who think they're good cuz they can fold more than 3 hands in a row. A few loose passives. One Lag. One other Tag. One woman who is playing at about 98/5/.03. She's called on the river with the disguised nuts before because she figured she was chopping.

Villain in this hand is a bad nitty local. Misses lots of value on big streets. Thinks AK is a drawing hand etc. His preflop raising range here is like JJ+, AKs.

My image is LAGy to them cuz I raise hands like QsJs but both Villains like me cuz I'm a good guy.

Hero is in the big blind with T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]

Folds to 98/5 who limps. One LP limps. Villian Raises OTB. TAG SB calls. Hero Calls. All Call.

Flop: 7 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]A [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero checks. Check. Check. Villain Bets. TAG Folds. Hero Raises. Extreme Loose Passive Calls. LP Folds. Villain Calls.

Turn 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
Hero Bets. Call. Villain Raises. Hero Threebets. Call. Villain Calls.

River K [img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]

Hero Bets. LP Raises. Villain Says Raise before he sees that LP called. Hero get ready to muck when I think he's threebetting, but call when he only calls.

Discussion of flop line is prolly apropriate. Also river line: b/c one b/f two. Also is the turn threebet ok?
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  #2  
Old 11-25-2007, 03:19 AM
earlytimes1 earlytimes1 is offline
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Default Re: 8/16 TT Flops a Set against a Nit and a Weak Passive

is leading flop better as it gets the passive players in between us and villain to call? we have huge equity and c/r might shut them out, no? (unless you were pretty sure they're calling a c/r anyway)
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Old 11-25-2007, 04:17 AM
One Outer One Outer is offline
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Default Re: 8/16 TT Flops a Set against a Nit and a Weak Passive

To me, villain as described wouldn't raise AK on the turn, even if he picked up the flush draw. If that's wrong, let me know.

I also b/c one back and b/f two cold on the river. Actually, if LP folded or just called and villain raised, given the turn action and his comfort raising that particular card I would have to consider a three bet.
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Old 11-25-2007, 06:37 AM
Spiffysean Spiffysean is offline
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Default Re: 8/16 TT Flops a Set against a Nit and a Weak Passive

Nothing there would scare me. If you are in a game where people are peeling with anything for three bets besides good sets, two pair, or a strong draw you should be a rich man.

You've got the near nuts with the set of Tens... you want to get as much money in there as you can. Obviously the LAG is going to call with any piece, which I would probably put him on A-x, maybe even A-7 for how hard he was jamming.

The point is, in a game where they don't seem to mind throwing in 2-3 bets out there cold, the Check-raise doesn't seem to matter, because they are calling everything anyway!

Sounds like a great game to flop middle set with no real draw to worry about. Jam it up!
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  #5  
Old 11-25-2007, 09:51 AM
James. James. is offline
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Default Re: 8/16 TT Flops a Set against a Nit and a Weak Passive

okay. this is confuzzing. what exactly was the board? cause either it's wrong or our hand is wrong. can't be two T [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]. i assume the board was rainbow on the flop, and you can correct me if i'm wrong.

pf is close(for me) between building a huge pot, and calling and seeing a flop. either option is fine, one increases value at the sake of variance and the other controls the pot size allowing you to win UI more often. so it's close in terms of benefits(one primarily benefits pf the other primarily benefits postflop).

on the flop you hit one of the strongest hands in your range. this means you want to build a big pot. IMO the best way to do this is donk the flop. this will tie alot of the loosepassives into the pot and give you a couple options if raised by the PFR:

*you can 3bet immediately in an effort to a)drive the guys in the middle out since the pot is really getting big and/or b)jam the pot gaining value from whatever weak draw decides it wants to gambool.

*you could also bet/call the flop and bet/3bet the turn. this is more acceptable given that the board is relatively drawless, but less desirable given that the pot will likely remain 4handed and some scarecards could induce the PFR to not raise your turn donk again while also allowing everyone to play more correctly.

so looking at those options i'm bet/3betting that flop most all of the time. if the PFR was very aggressive(and showdown bound) with top pair hands i might choose the b/c, b3b line. but even then the pot is 8bb or so before the turn and that's big enough to start protecting our hand given the multiway-ness of the situation.

so i bet/3bet the flop and lead the turn. if i'm raised by anyone on the turn i'm 3betting. we still hold a monster and i want to jam for value. so this means as played, your bet/3bet on the turn is great. good job.

the river gets interesting and i don't think i can really get to specific given that the action is incorrect. you say "LP folds" on the turn, but now on the river you say "LP raises". so i'm confuzzed again.

but here's what i would do:

i would bet. if the super loosepassive raises i would call. if the super loosepassive gets 3bet by the LP raiser i would call thinking that's the last money i'm putting in. AK is heavily in the PFR range(4 combos of AA/KK and 9 combos of AK+ retard factor) in he may think he hit his gin card with two pair outdrawing your AT/A7/A6.

except for the flop, i think you played the hand fine(but i wouldn't fold the river if the PFR 3bet because i still think we a fave over his range).
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Old 11-25-2007, 01:10 PM
JJH3984 JJH3984 is offline
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Default Re: 8/16 TT Flops a Set against a Nit and a Weak Passive

James,

I think you're misreading the hand.

On the flop we are five handed then on the turn we are three handed. There is a normal LP who folded the flop and the super LP who called the flop and the turn. No one folded the turn and I don't see the word fold anywhere in the turn action in my hand.

Hero Bets. Call. Villain Raises. Hero Threebets. Call. Villain Calls.

That's the turn action I posted. It's right.

The river went Hero bets. EXLP Raises. WT nit says raise but calls when he sees EXLP raised. Hero calls one.

Also I suck at posting the right suits.
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  #7  
Old 11-25-2007, 01:42 PM
Ricks Ricks is offline
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Default Re: 8/16 TT Flops a Set against a Nit and a Weak Passive

[ QUOTE ]
Villain Says Raise before he sees that LP called.

[/ QUOTE ]

That confused me but now I understand. I think you played it fine but I would probably have lead the flop, hoping to trap and 3-bet, because the board is not too bad. On the other hand, the pot is not small, there is a likely GS, so there is reason for protecting your hand.
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  #8  
Old 11-25-2007, 09:25 PM
James. James. is offline
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Default Re: 8/16 TT Flops a Set against a Nit and a Weak Passive

[ QUOTE ]
James,

I think you're misreading the hand.

On the flop we are five handed then on the turn we are three handed. There is a normal LP who folded the flop and the super LP who called the flop and the turn. No one folded the turn and I don't see the word fold anywhere in the turn action in my hand.

Hero Bets. Call. Villain Raises. Hero Threebets. Call. Villain Calls.

That's the turn action I posted. It's right.

The river went Hero bets. EXLP Raises. WT nit says raise but calls when he sees EXLP raised. Hero calls one.

Also I suck at posting the right suits.

[/ QUOTE ]

i think i had favorites up on windows xp and it made it look like(at a glance) that LP folds the turn but as you said it was actually the flop. what confuzzed me was saying LP folds the flop and then LP raises the river. but i see now its more multiway on the flop than i initially thought. i'm pretty sure i'll still stick with my analysis. i'm bet/3betting the flop and leading the turn. as played i would bet/3bet the turn and call one on the river, maybe two if the PFR DID 3bet, but since he didn't i'd call one as you did. i think i read most of the hand right(except the flop vs. turn fold of LP #1). i stick with thinking that PFR would 3bet with two pair as his likely holding, but looking at his range and the river raiser i don't think he's 3betting even his best holdings most of the time since so often superloosepassive has exactly QJ.
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