Fulltilt froze my account with 47 grand in it

[gehrig]

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From what I understand, bots cannot multitable. You know what I'm saying is true.

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You've played high limit poker for years and yet you make an obviously absurd statement like this?

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oh i didnt even see that quote from sillysal

ive been pretty active in all these threads and i have absolutely no recollection of anyone ever saying bots can't multitable.

but thinking about it, i can't really recall ever seeing any of the bots multitable.

i guess sillysal is pretty familiar with how they work

[_dave_]

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does anyone wanna link to the big beatme1 thread


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Here we go...

http://forumserver.twoplustwo.com/showfl...rt=all&vc=1


Something that interests me is the age of the Sillysal 2p2 account - most of these type of things are accounts created on the day of the first post - Sillysal has been here for a long time, user# 818!

There are certain similarities between the two cases for sure - although I don't think we ever got to see stats for beatme1 like we have here. But Gehrig says they play the same so it would seem.

Either the two cases are running the same HU limit bot, or this also calls in to question the validity of the betame1 confiscations too.

SillySal - if you are not one and the same as beatme1 (did you ever play each other?) - it may be a good idea to meet up with her...

[toutatis70]

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From what I understand, bots cannot multitable. You know what I'm saying is true.

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You've played high limit poker for years and yet you make an obviously absurd statement like this?

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oh i didnt even see that quote from sillysal

ive been pretty active in all these threads and i have absolutely no recollection of anyone ever saying bots can't multitable.

but thinking about it, i can't really recall ever seeing any of the bots multitable.

i guess sillysal is pretty familiar with how they work

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So what about that pattern Fulltilt? Silly sal=multitable human programmed bot no multitable. Sounds fishy that silly would play herself and at the same time employ the human programed superior bot at another table to play. Wow never seen so many players scared of these human programmed bots, these bots must bluff real well and detect bluffs huh.

[gaming_mouse]

so obviously guilty

[[Phill]]

Im confused what the real evidence here is to make her "obviously guilty".

I mean given a large enough sample you will always have a few players with the same stats - so you can throw that out if it is unsupported with further details.

So, it comes back to Full Tilt.

Also - as i predicted way back on page 1, it is now clear that Crazy Mike is behind this being brought to the attention of FTP.

Anyway, i guess unlike some of you im waiting for Mike Haven (assuming i havent missed it) to come here and say "yeah, obv guilty" or "well, im no expert, but im not convinced" etc.

[ephro]

Crazy Mike was not involved in this investigation. I have asked that Mike Haven contact me directly but he is going to bed for the night. We have forwarded him on what I believe to be conclusive evidence, but I would prefer that he review it and respond directly. Personally I would have preferred a final review tonight, but that doesn't seem like its going to happen. I don't want to comment further on the case, but would prefer a trusted third party. For any legitimate questions contact me through PM.


Ephraim

[StellarWind]

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Here is an extract from the information FTP sent me.

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It's important to realize that this statistical comparison is the tip of the iceberg of what FTP security may have done. They have all of the hand records with complete hole cards and a very large sample size. There are literally thousands of stats that can be computed if you are willing to write a little software to do the analysis. Examples for HU play:

1. Hero raises preflop from the SB/Button, bets and 3-bets the flop, and gets checkraised on the turn. Hero then:

Folds X%
Calls Y%
3-bets Z%

2. Hero defends the BB with suited cards and flops a flush draw. Hero then:

Bets out X%
Checkcalls Y%
Checkraises Z%

This process of creating and comparing new stats can go on-and-on until you get bored (or three weeks pass [img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]). If two players are identical in every aspect of their game then the only reasonable conclusion is that they are the same player. It's not possible for two human beings to play a sophisticated game of poker in such an identical fashion. Indeed it is unlikely that the same player could play 100K hands and then play another 100K hands that looked exactly like the first. People change over time. Only software can be duplicated to produce multiple unchanging copies of itself.

The population of regular high-limit HU LHE players on FTP is very small, perhaps a few dozen at most. Go open up FTP sometime and take a look around. It's not like FTP searched all the people on Earth to find three identical players.

The case of the low-level NL grinders who were acquitted of botting despite identical stats is different in the following ways:

1. The system they were playing was deliberately designed to be a baby system that multiple people could learn to play identically.

2. It was alleged (never publicly confirmed but FTP probably checked) that they each played the blinds in their own personal way.

3. They all admitted to be related to each other. So far Sal has not made any claim that she and the other two players worked together to develop an identical style. In all likelihood the opposite is true. They probably carefully made their accounts look unrelated to hide their botting activity.

Sal is demanding to see evidence that a bot was running on her computer. That may never be forthcoming for the simple reason that the bot may not have been running on her computer. It's quite possible that the AI program ran on a different computer with Sal sitting at the computer providing the interface. That would allow her to handle routine chores like sitting down, posting, and avoiding scary opponents while the AI program did all the actual playing. Given the stakes the bot was playing it would be greedy not to monitor it at all times anyway.

If my hypothesis is correct it doesn't excuse anything. Using an AI program to make your decisions is cheating regardless of who is holding the mouse.

[DeNutza]

Its already been stated by inside security sources that
sites do take SCREENSHOTS.

There could be no basis to determine your using AI intelligence otherwise.


Did Sal ever post the exact screenname?

[_dave_]

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If my hypothesis is correct it doesn't excuse anything. Using an AI program to make your decisions is cheating regardless of who is holding the mouse.


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Um, no it isn't [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]

As evidenced by nlnut et al - using computer-aided decision making is A-OK on FTP providing a human is at the controls and has the ability to override the bot's "suggestion"

Same goes for Stars regarding certain applications on the "allowed software" list.

Why on earth would a site deem "advisory" class applications a bannable offense?

The danger of poker bots is not that they play correctly - a trained human can do that - it is that they can play unattended 24/7 without tilt and can be replicated at will.

No?

[DeNutza]

Sal seems to be adamant that he isnt a pure poker bot.

I believe him, but somewhere you have to draw the line
on what is acceptable (pokertracker) and what isnt when
it comes to computer aided decisions.

By Sals reaction, he's clearly using alot of his own
judgement when to leave/enter games, and its probably
still alot of work to win $ via whatever method hes
using.

Im almost certain FT would have to have screenshots.