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  #101  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:30 PM
Abe Abe is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

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Believe it or not, poker made money for the house back in those "ancient days" before the Chris Moneymaker era, too.

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In 2002, how many LV strip casinos had poker rooms?
MGM? No.
Venetian? No.
Caesars? No.
Guess why.

It's not about making money. It's about making the most money.

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Most of todays NL kids think Moneymaker started poker -- and anyway they were probably not playing casino poker WAY back in 2002.

These 3 casinos all DID have poker prior to 2002, but had closed them. Caesars in about 1990 and the other two about 2001. (LV players, please add any correct facts here)

Many poker rooms were closed in the "poker UN-boom" of 2000 - 2001. Harrahs LV closed their creepy little room and used the space for a gift shop. In fact Harrahs was closing poker rooms all over the country. Also in LV, the Rio closed their poker room and I'm sure there were others.

But the good rooms stayed open and made money --- Bellagio, Mirage, etc.
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  #102  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:41 PM
dtf13 dtf13 is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

Fact.

Poker rooms don't make $$$
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  #103  
Old 11-27-2007, 01:53 PM
Mr Rick Mr Rick is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

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Believe it or not, poker made money for the house back in those "ancient days" before the Chris Moneymaker era, too.

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In 2002, how many LV strip casinos had poker rooms?
MGM? No.
Venetian? No.
Caesars? No.
Guess why.

It's not about making money. It's about making the most money.

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The OP and issue under debate are about making money or not, not about making the most money or not.



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Yes. However, the question that follows is why if poker makes money, isn't more care and attention given to improving or expanding poker operations?

Many of the answers have been given in this thread and are extremely important in understanding why it seems nobody cares. I would summarize (and add a few of my own) as follows:
1) Profit from poker is generated differently than other table games and even slots. Player losses don't go directly to the casino.
2) Compared to slots, poker is very labor intensive (and doesn't generate as much income per square foot)
3) IMO, Casinos are afraid their bigger losers will stray to poker tables and dump huge amounts there where the casino gets virtually none of it. Hence having the poker room located in out of the way places serves the casinos.
4) Long waiting lists for poker probably generate more income for the casinos than smaller waiting lists because discouraged players may very well gamble at other kinds of games.
5) Once the decision has been made as to the size of the poker room, it may be hard to expand, even in the desert. Few casinos I have visited seem to have given much thought to how to expand when their rooms are filled to capacity (or when major tournaments are run).
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  #104  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:14 PM
Cactus Jack Cactus Jack is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

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Fact.

Poker rooms don't make $$$

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WV Poker Rooms Profit
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  #105  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:35 PM
EWillers EWillers is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

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WV Poker Rooms Profit

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Sweet. An actual, bonafide fact.

Thanks for the link.
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  #106  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:40 PM
Rick Diesel Rick Diesel is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

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WV Poker Rooms Profit

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Sweet. An actual, bonafide fact.

Thanks for the link.

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Actually not. See the link only lists revenue, but the poster named the link profit. Revenue and profit are two very different things.
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  #107  
Old 11-27-2007, 04:49 PM
soah soah is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

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WV Poker Rooms Profit

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Sweet. An actual, bonafide fact.

Thanks for the link.

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Actually not. See the link only lists revenue, but the poster named the link profit. Revenue and profit are two very different things.

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so it costs more than $700,000 to run a poker room for four weeks?
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  #108  
Old 11-27-2007, 05:29 PM
Spiffysean Spiffysean is offline
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Location: Pittsburgh, PA
Posts: 55
Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

I like this thread.

Casinos also have things like Bingo, or Keno parlors that do not generate the same amount of revenue that slots and tables do... but they still have them. It's a space issue, and maximizing the space is only PART of the argument against poker.

I look at it like the mortgage boom in 2004. Back them, everyone was getting into mortgages, and opening new broker shops, banks, etc. Business was great for a while. Business has since tapered off, and a lot of those places have closed their doors.

Does it mean that you still can't make money as a mortgage broker? Of course not. You just have to make sure that you are doing it better than the people who were not able to sustain themselves when times got a little bit tighter.

That's really what it comes down to. Poker DOES make money, but just like any other business, it has to be run effectively.
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  #109  
Old 11-28-2007, 02:00 AM
Max Raker Max Raker is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

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With more than one table, the minimum break even rake per table goes down pretty quickly. Eventually the curve levels off. For example, a room with 100 tables would see little difference between 75 and 100 tables. Yes, this does indicate that there are limits to the profitability of poker. You simply cannot take a room that makes millions and force it to make billions by raising the rake.
Al

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What are you trying to say here? Are you assuming the 100 table room is operating at a lower percent capacity than the 50 person room. Other wise I see no reason for the curve to ever level off.
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  #110  
Old 11-28-2007, 11:08 PM
Jimmy The Fish Jimmy The Fish is offline
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Location: Back in the Show-Me State
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

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WV Poker Rooms Profit

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Sweet. An actual, bonafide fact.

Thanks for the link.

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Actually not. See the link only lists revenue, but the poster named the link profit. Revenue and profit are two very different things.

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so it costs more than $700,000 to run a poker room for four weeks?

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Almost certainly not. But you're very close to the distinction between revenue and profit.

Revenue is all the money that comes in. Profit is the amount of revenue that's left over after all the bills have been paid.

The link provides information on WV poker revenue, but doesn't give any indication of how much profit there might be. See posts from earlier in the thread about how accountants in other casinos have pushed non-poker expenses into the poker room's ledger, to make the rooms appear less profitable. The bottom line is, you can't just look at revenue and draw a conclusion.
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