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  #81  
Old 11-25-2007, 09:13 PM
daveT daveT is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

What everyone is forgetting is that the modern customer doesn't go to Vegas just to pull a slot handle.

Some people go to play poker and nothing else. Some people go for the shows and nothing else. The casinos are going to do everything in their power to lock up every revenue stream possible. No one can predict what the future will hold. Before Thorpe, Blackjack was a parlor game, less popular than Faro.

It behooves the casinos to cater to the largest customer base possible. Poker rooms would not be maintained or opened if they were not self-sustaining and profitable.
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  #82  
Old 11-25-2007, 09:30 PM
raisebot raisebot is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

[ QUOTE ]
You guys also forget that casinos do not own the shuffling machines and lease them. Those shuffling machines are outrageously expensive and cost the casino as well. I believe the standard automatic shuffler has a market value of 16k PER shuffler. Obviously its leased but its still an additional cost. (The same applies to other games though with auto shufflers)

[/ QUOTE ]
The shuffle machines can now be bought and sold, without being leased.

http://www.shufflemaster.com/02_eu_p.../deck_mate.asp

"Shuffle Master, Inc. is a licensed gaming supply company that provides products to casino customers. Due to the fact Shuffle Master is in a highly regulated industry, we generally do not sell our equipment to unlicensed individuals or organizations however, we have recently begun offering our Deck Mate® poker shuffler for private purchase and use for $15,795. Not available for purchase in Colorado, New Jersey, Washington or Texas. "

However, Shufflemaster has recently introduced the "iShuffle" (different versions being the i-deal and the i-shoe), which can track the order of the cards, and automatically "reset" the decks when the game is done. You'll see these slowly being introduced in the coming years, likely in pit games where game integrity means more to the house than poker. The iShuffle is the only shuffle machine offered by Shufflemaster currently only available by lease. Not sure if this version will ever be introduced to poker.

quoted from the Shufflemaster website-

http://www.shufflemaster.com/01_comp...asp?newsID=134
•i-Deal™: As Shuffle Master’s third generation single deck specialty shuffler, the i-Deal is the fastest of our single deck shufflers and features several key enhancements including standard card recognition technology that reads the rank and suit of each card being dealt and a deck-sorting function.

•i-Shoe™ intelligent shoe: A smart alternative to a traditional shoe, the i-Shoe increases baccarat and blackjack game security by reading the rank and suit of each card being dealt. Unique in its ability to learn to recognize any brand of unmarked playing card, the i-Shoe interfaces with an attractive display to post the outcome of each round.
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  #83  
Old 11-25-2007, 09:36 PM
AngusThermopyle AngusThermopyle is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

i-Deal™ and i-Shoe™
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  #84  
Old 11-25-2007, 10:37 PM
Spiffysean Spiffysean is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

Does anyone have any Economics background? Why can't Vegas apply the simple laws of supply and demand to poker rooms?

For instance, if there was a demand for more slot machines because people were 3-deep waiting for a pull, Vegas would make room for more slot machines. Right now there is a demand for poker, so Vegas makes room for it.

Would Vegas rather be making more of a profit on slots and tables games versus poker? Probably. However, most rooms in Vegas are smart enough to realize that a small piece of the pie is better than no pie at all.

Management in Vegas wouldn't go to the bathroom if they thought it cost them money, and they certainly wouldn't open up losing operations.
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  #85  
Old 11-25-2007, 11:23 PM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default overhead

That ridiculous "poker doesn't make money. Fact" post almost got me to respond, but the thread is getting huge. People may argue any point they wish, but if they don't back up what they say with something (facts, examples, opinions etc) then it's just hot air and wasted space.

Can't remember who posted it (matt ?) but I have quote + comments on cardroom overhead:



[ QUOTE ]
Al,

What did you calculate for space overhead? $40/sqft/year? What's the right amount?

My guess is poker will be given a broad exception in some states as gambling laws relax. Cardhouses will spring up to meet the demand. A medium-sized room in an outlying county here (outside of the Triangle) would do well, especially since building and land costs would be low. Figure overhead of about $12/sqft for building and land costs with utilities. Not sure what the tax rate would be.

If there were 12 tables with 40% occupancy and the rake were, say, $4 per hand, what kind of money would we be talking after paying everyone? Let's say 5000 sq ft to start, so about $70,000/year in building and grounds.

Also, how do you feel about living in North Carolina? ;-)

Matt

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm not the guru of numbers when it comes to things like building maintenance and such, therefore I did not figure anything based on square footage. I did ask some questions from various people, then estimated things like that based on their answers + what seemed reasonable. Those costs could fluctuate quite a bit without changing the overall results very much.

Let me say that a ten table room with an average 40% occupancy, 10% to $4 rake would make between $3k on a very slow day and $13k on their very best days, with the average around 7k. Another very important point is the table average will probably be around $70-$80/hour. If I get any more specific than that, I'd hafta kill ya. :-)

Al
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  #86  
Old 11-26-2007, 12:56 AM
EWillers EWillers is offline
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Default Re: overhead

[ QUOTE ]
I've heard it so many times it makes me want to puke. People hold beliefs they think are true, but have not bothered to do their homework on the actual facts. These facts are readily apparent, accessible, clear and unambiguous, yet the ignorant keep making blanket statements such as:


[/ QUOTE ]

[ QUOTE ]
That ridiculous "poker doesn't make money. Fact" post almost got me to respond, but the thread is getting huge. People may argue any point they wish, but if they don't back up what they say with something (facts, examples, opinions etc) then it's just hot air and wasted space.


[/ QUOTE ]

The original post references "actual facts" in name only. The original post offers a detailed analysis of a hypothetical card room.

I would disagree with the OP if the OP is claiming that what was offered in the original post were facts.

I would disagree with the OP that actual facts are "readily apparant" and "accessable". If by "actual facts" he simply means using logic to make educated guesses about things then these "actual facts" are easily obtained.

These are not "facts" though. These are speculation, opinion, argument, etc. and that's cool. I got no problem with such. I do have a problem when speculation, opinion, argument, etc. are held out to be "actual facts".

Again, if there are numbers that are out there on this issue (and I doubt there are), it would be a great resource to be able to see them.

This is a really good thread and an interesting topic.
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  #87  
Old 11-26-2007, 01:04 AM
ClarkNasty ClarkNasty is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

[ QUOTE ]
Why can't Vegas apply the simple laws of supply and demand to poker rooms?


[/ QUOTE ]

Vegas did. Rooms popped up everywhere for a long time. Now you see the smallest/worst rooms closing, and more will follow as poker finds a new equilibrium post-fad.
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  #88  
Old 11-26-2007, 03:25 AM
Al_Capone_Junior Al_Capone_Junior is offline
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Default more on shufflers

Gee, I feel like shufflemaster slipped an ad into this thread.

Regular shufflers are fine. "Game security" is quoted as the reason for machines that read rank and suit of each card. And I got some beachfront property in new mexico for ya. Seems to me this technology would more likely just allow casinos to reshuffle a positive count shoe (although I believe some already have technology for this anyway).

Needless to say, I'm against the use of machines to track counts and keep them negative for the customers.

Al
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  #89  
Old 11-26-2007, 03:33 AM
Spiffysean Spiffysean is offline
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Default Re: let\'s get the facts straight: poker makes money

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Why can't Vegas apply the simple laws of supply and demand to poker rooms?


[/ QUOTE ]

Vegas did. Rooms popped up everywhere for a long time. Now you see the smallest/worst rooms closing, and more will follow as poker finds a new equilibrium post-fad.

[/ QUOTE ]

Exactly, and well said. God knows we've been to rooms in Vegas (the Tropicana, etc) that do not even TRY with the room that they have, and I'm sure that they will close in time. However, what we have ALSO seen is that a wellrun poker room IS a good moneymaking draw for a casino. The work that the Bellagio, Venetian, and Wynn have done will ensure that although poker might decline in the future... they will be the ones to turn the light out when the boom is over.

There are too many successful business models for a room out there now. The bottom line is - if a casino wants to make a committment to run a good room, it's STILL (and probably forever will be) possible to do.
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  #90  
Old 11-26-2007, 12:30 PM
ClarkNasty ClarkNasty is offline
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Default Re: more on shufflers

[ QUOTE ]
I'm against the use of machines to track counts and keep them negative for the customers

[/ QUOTE ]

So is the NGC.
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