(razz) bet/fold river?

[RustyBrooks]

I think betting the river is mandatory here, since the player with A9 will definitely call if he makes it, and the other guy will call with any 8.

If the guy showing 83 raises, should I still be calling? He's a total unknown, just sat down and has never played razz at these stakes in the last 3 months, so I know nothing about him. The A9 guy kind of surprised me, he doesn't seem the type to call down here.

Razz ($0.50/$1), Ante $0.10, Bring-In $0.15 (converter)

3rd Street - (1.60 SB)

Seat 1: xx xx J[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 3: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 4: xx xx 6[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in

4th Street - (2.80 SB)

Seat 2: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___folds
Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

5th Street - (2.90 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls

6th Street - (5.90 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls

River - (8.90 BB)

Hero: 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets___???
Seat 6: xx xx 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] xx___folds
Seat 8: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___raises

Total pot: (12.90 BB - $12.90)

[JavaKing]

Call River...Berate Player

[WhiteWolf]

Pot's way to big, and your hand is too good vs his possible holdings, to even consider folding - especially against a complete unknown.

[ChipsAhoya]

[ QUOTE ]
Pot's way to big, and your hand is too good vs his possible holdings, to even consider folding - especially against a complete unknown.

[/ QUOTE ]

Plus he has an 8 showing, so it's not like he could be raising a 7 or something so there's a better than normal chance you're not beat here; he could even have like 8732A. Who knows, I called what ended up being a river bluff raise in a big pot today. Can't fold here...

-ChipsAhoya

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]

Plus he has an 8 showing, so it's not like he could be raising a 7 or something

[/ QUOTE ]

To me this is the worst part... if I give him credit for being average for these stakes (i.e. not great but not retarded) then if he's calling drawing to an 8 it should probably be a pretty good one. I'd be a *little* more likely to think he was bluff raising if he had like A6 showing, because it's more likely that I'd fold a made 8 in that situation. I would think, given his up cards, that he expects me to call.

[ChipsAhoya]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]

Plus he has an 8 showing, so it's not like he could be raising a 7 or something

[/ QUOTE ]

To me this is the worst part... if I give him credit for being average for these stakes (i.e. not great but not retarded) then if he's calling drawing to an 8 it should probably be a pretty good one. I'd be a *little* more likely to think he was bluff raising if he had like A6 showing, because it's more likely that I'd fold a made 8 in that situation. I would think, given his up cards, that he expects me to call.

[/ QUOTE ]

The other thing here to mention is that you know he has a K8 made. Is he going to call you w/ a K,Q,J,T,9? Maybe? Will you get called or raised by every hand that beats you? Yeah. So I like to c/c these spots because I don't think betting has much value unless I know the opponent will call with really bad hands. It's not like he has a T made here and is calling down hoping you paired; although you'll get called by the 9 here if he makes it obviously so c/c might not be the best line in this particular hand due to the person drawing dead. Just something else to think about for future play...

-ChipsAhoya

[RustyBrooks]

I bet because I knew the 9 would call if he had made a 9, and the 8 would call any 8, whether it beats me or not. I could potentially miss 1-2bb here. Further I think either of them (but probably not both) would call with a 9, T, or even a J.

I hate check-calling here... seems like every time I check I could have gotten another bb or two. Having to act first here sucks, I would much rather have had the 8 draw check to me.

[Praxising]

If he wins it serves you right for not raising 3rd. (Now you have to write a hundred times: I will always raise on 3rd unless slow-playing...

I'd reraise this at light speed. I can't imagine folding. At these stakes he'd think an 87 was good. Or he's a NLHE refugee who thinks raising the river will get you to fold. He might think you have a brick in the hole and are bluffing. Seems to me the least likely scenario is him having a better hand. And if he has an 85 or 84, well, there ya go. Then you know something about him.

[RustyBrooks]

[ QUOTE ]
If he wins it serves you right for not raising 3rd. (Now you have to write a hundred times: I will always raise on 3rd unless slow-playing...

I'd reraise this at light speed. I can't imagine folding. At these stakes he'd think an 87 was good. Or he's a NLHE refugee who thinks raising the river will get you to fold. He might think you have a brick in the hole and are bluffing. Seems to me the least likely scenario is him having a better hand. And if he has an 85 or 84, well, there ya go. Then you know something about him.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think re-raising here is awful without clear evidence that this player would raise me with an 87.

I don't think raising 3rd is mandatory or even a great idea.

The really awful thing about this hand is that it convinced me to make a terrible calldown against this player in a later hand.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
The really awful thing about this hand is that it convinced me to make a terrible calldown against this player in a later hand.

[/ QUOTE ]
How did it do that? If you don't mind telling us, what happened here and on that later hand?