Defense against the squeeze play...

[bakergolf]

Garland,

What did this couple look like?

Mark in Kansas City

[chesspain]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude
It sounds to me that you were folding hands that you wouldn't be able to call a raise with anyway (8 high, 6high etc).

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[Chipspin]

If you felt there was a strong possibility of collusion, then leave, or request a seat change (it's usually ok if you clear it with the players, yeah?). That said...

Another 2p2'er (Bdaddy) and I were once accused of the same thing. He was sitting on my right and every time it was folded to Bdaddy in the CO or on the button and he opened, I happened to have a hand that was likely ahead of his. And we never went to SD. After one player started barking at us (this was the 3rd or 4th time this happened over the course of an hour), I showed a flopped bottom two pair and he showed a flopped top-bottom pair. And I folded to his flop 5-bet.

That gentleman no longer made any comments. Point is, I think it's difficult to correctly suspect collusion in a short game just because the two people know each other.

[that_pope]

If I kept getting 6 and 8 highs in my BB while shorthanded, and the button would never fold if folded to him, I would much like the SB to continually 3 bet, because it makes my decision 100% easier. The only reason you are asking this is because they showed up together and have been seen talking to each other.

If it was two random people, you would just let it go as an aggressive shorthanded game.

But again, if you ever feel the integrity of the game is in question, it is best just to get up and leave. No reason to cause a scene, and insult others, just in case nothing wrong was going on. Go play 20 for awhile or go home...no big deal, the game will be there tomorrow.

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
Dude
It sounds to me that you were folding hands that you wouldn't be able to call a raise with anyway (8 high, 6high etc). I would suggest that you loosen up a bit and call 3 bet with the hand that you would call 1 raise and cap anything that worth 3 bets. If you feel that you being squeezed post flop then you can talk to the floor but i wouldn't. Great collusion is saving bets and not giving you odds postflop and sounds like they doing the opposite.

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Please understand this really isn't about "loosening up" and defending my blind. You're right; I had blind hands I wouldn't call one bet, let alone two.

The real issue is I'm seeing play that is at least on the borderline of suspicious pre-flop. If they are in fact working together, who knows what they are capable of post-flop when a 3rd player enters in on the flop. The fact that they are aggressive, decent players exasperates the situation as cheating becomes more difficult to discern from honest hard play.

Remember, they are sitting right next to each other, so it's not beyond the realm of possibility that something like this happens:

(1) SB sees an above average hand and action fold to the button. Before button acts, SB taps button’s foot to signal to raise with any two, so she can 3-bet.

Or

(2) Button sees an above average hand and the action folded to him. He taps SB’s foot to re-raise any two.

Regardless of what I have, this is clearly illegal, but difficult to prove.

Maybe I’m misunderstanding “great collusion is saving bets”. Do you mean one team member “tells” the other to fold because he/she holds a great hand? This doesn’t really make sense since they would appear to be playing of the same bankroll and splitting their wins at the end of the day anyways. It makes more sense to have both in the pot more often so they can make audible plays at will.

Garland

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
If I kept getting 6 and 8 highs in my BB while shorthanded, and the button would never fold if folded to him, I would much like the SB to continually 3 bet, because it makes my decision 100% easier. The only reason you are asking this is because they showed up together and have been seen talking to each other.

If it was two random people, you would just let it go as an aggressive shorthanded game.

But again, if you ever feel the integrity of the game is in question, it is best just to get up and leave. No reason to cause a scene, and insult others, just in case nothing wrong was going on. Go play 20 for awhile or go home...no big deal, the game will be there tomorrow.

[/ QUOTE ]

But what if I actually got a "marginal" hand? Even to a SB 3-bet? Say Q9s? Now I might cap it, but I'm probably going against at least one real hand, and they are both calling so they can work together against me post-flop. (This is, of course, theoretical as it never got to post-flop).

If I opt to just call 2 more bets, SB can opt to signal to button to raise again because SB is re-raising for value.

But you're probably right. I should probably opt to go home rather than say anything in case I'm wrong. I'm just thinking ahead like I usually do: "What should I do if I encounter them again and again?" I don't have too much experience with cheating (well, at least that I know of). I'm looking for insight on how cheating players are caught and dealt with by the floor.

Again, this was originally a brick and mortar discussion.

Garland

[Garland]

[ QUOTE ]
If you felt there was a strong possibility of collusion, then leave, or request a seat change (it's usually ok if you clear it with the players, yeah?). That said...

Another 2p2'er (Bdaddy) and I were once accused of the same thing. He was sitting on my right and every time it was folded to Bdaddy in the CO or on the button and he opened, I happened to have a hand that was likely ahead of his. And we never went to SD. After one player started barking at us (this was the 3rd or 4th time this happened over the course of an hour), I showed a flopped bottom two pair and he showed a flopped top-bottom pair. And I folded to his flop 5-bet.

That gentleman no longer made any comments. Point is, I think it's difficult to correctly suspect collusion in a short game just because the two people know each other.

[/ QUOTE ]

Re: seat change. No, it wasn't ok even if cleared by players. It was enforced by both the dealer and the floor.

In your case, it was suspicious to raise/4-bet/fold to a 5-bet simply because it's something that is "never" seen in live play. I can honestly say I've only seen it happen once in live play in the last 4 years, and I've played a lot of live poker in the last 4 years.

It's never difficult to suspect collusion. It is, however, difficult to correctly prove collusion. And even the appearance of possible collusion is very, very bad for the game.

Thanks for your thoughts,

Garland

[jesse8888]

I pm'ed this to Garland as the thread seemed closed, but he suggested I post it here. My two cents:

I don't play this high, but my general advice if that if you suspect collusion, just get up. Not because it's happening for sure or they have an advantage, but because they have gotten in your head and you're likely to play less than optimally against them. If I'm ever uncomfortable at the table, I change games, tables or call it a night.

[Chipspin]

[ QUOTE ]
...just get up. Not because it's happening for sure or they have an advantage, but because they have gotten in your head and you're likely to play less than optimally against them.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is really solid advice imo. Thanks for posting that.

[3rdCheckRaise]

[ QUOTE ]
(1) SB sees an above average hand and action fold to the button. Before button acts, SB taps button’s foot to signal to raise with any two, so she can 3-bet.


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In case of real collusion SB would tap buttons foot to fold and leave him head up with you . Please understand that if they are on the same bankroll and SB has QQ or KK then by shoving buttons 2-4 extra bets into the pot he is making your call a lot more profitable and much less incorrect.