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  #21  
Old 11-30-2007, 06:49 PM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

notice I said depending on the pot size. Which he emphasizes in later chapters that pot size is a very demanding factor.
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  #22  
Old 11-30-2007, 10:22 PM
MikeBandy MikeBandy is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

Ah. Thanks, Ceegee.
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  #23  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:37 PM
Poker CPA Poker CPA is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

Early position is early position. And late position on the later streets is desired for the CR plays. Knock-out stud has its place, but not at low limits. DS says just the opposite of your entire two threads. Get the book ASAP.
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  #24  
Old 12-01-2007, 01:11 AM
SGspecial SGspecial is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

[ QUOTE ]
Reason why???

"if someone can put you accurately on a pair in the hole you are toast as they get to play their hand almost perfectly"

[/ QUOTE ]
Ok, thanks for the comments. Do you play it the same way with split JJ?
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  #25  
Old 12-01-2007, 02:06 AM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

He doesn't understand that Ray Zee was talking about the bringin and not EP. Way different.
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  #26  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:20 AM
dsaxton dsaxton is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

[ QUOTE ]
Reason why???

"if someone can put you accurately on a pair in the hole you are toast as they get to play their hand almost perfectly"

[/ QUOTE ]

Low limit players rarely put you on anything accurately, and even when they do, they still make mistakes.
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  #27  
Old 12-01-2007, 10:07 AM
Poker CPA Poker CPA is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

SG

"Ok, thanks for the comments. Do you play it the same way with split JJ?"

The OP uses 2/4 as an example, so its a situation where I like to mix it up. But its about 80/20 limp. This could change based on my position to the "whale(s)" or any fish playing. But I'm basicly reversing strategies here, which I believe is DS's recommendations for loose games. These are "play more hands" and "keep the early betting down". 2/4 is the lowest I play online, and it works. Knock-out games are different, MUCH different.

dsaxtion

"Low limit players rarely put you on anything accurately, and even when they do, they still make mistakes."

Again 2/4 here. Agree that SOME players have no handreading skills, but not all. Including myself, at least 3 players have an excellent awareness of whats going on on any given 2/4 table. And all it takes is just 1. If you have any experience with online stud over the last 5 years, you know the stud population is getting smaller. The excellent players win and play at any game available now. Hell, Andy plays at 1/2 with Red D, as well as a lot of other excellent posters. And their mistakes are limited, thus the "almost perfect play". At these limits my motto is "Cheap fold or Biggie Pot". 19-1 is nice when it hits, but lets wait until it does. 2/4 is still a game of getting an extra bet when you have the goods and saving a bet when they have the goods. 2/4 is the lowest for me and it works for me. And I love playing hands almost perfectly.

Cee

"way different". How so????
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  #28  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:03 PM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

It is way different because like Ray Zee said, If you have a strong hand and complete in the bring in, people can tell. You have the choice of only bringing in for a little and if you choose to bring in for full it definitly shows you have a good hand, which people can then tell you have a premium pair or trips here. If you are UTG and complete, this could be any range from A2[2] to TT[2] if you are loose at a low limit game.
If you limp the jacks with a Queen and King left to act and they limp as well, you are asking for the drawing hands to catch as well as maybe one of the queens or kings pairing their door card. The main objetive in stud according to every book I've read is to get people out as early as you can, and without a monster EP, trips, you don't want people drawing to a hand that will beat yours. You want to play most premium pairs agressive if the board looks non threatening.
The only case where you will limp EP is if you have a bord like Q, K, J, A, left to act because you have 3 higher door cards as well as your jack are dead.
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  #29  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:04 PM
Andy B Andy B is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

The guy who starts with a pair has something like a 16% chance to hit his set if he stays in until the river. One-pair hands can't handle a lot of pressure and are frequently folded before the end. Meanwhile, if you're rolled, you've got a 40% chance to improve yourself. The guy with one pair isn't that great of a threat. I'm a lot more worried about straight and flush draws.

As for taking your Jacks against open Queens, let's discuss a couple of possible scenarios. Let's say that the Queen raised third, and you called with Jacks because there was a Queen out and you like to gamble. The other guy now hits open Queens. If, as is typical of low-limit stud players, the other guy will only raise third street with big pairs, his possible distribution of hands might look something like this:

AA 6 ways
KK 6 ways
Qx 41 ways
JJ 1 way
TT 6 ways

So it's overwhelmingly likely that he has you crushed. You can't call with JJ in this spot, and it essentially doesn't matter how big the pot is.

Now say that you were the raiser with your Jacks and he called. He probably has something, and maybe it ain't much, but enough for him to call with. There's at least some chance he started with split Queens, and maybe he didn't raise because he didn't like the dead cards or maybe he's scared of his own shadow. Maybe he started with a pair in the hole, in which case you're drawing to two outs. If you have an over-card kicker, it's five outs, but he can still outdraw you. Here, you're not in good shape, and it is very unlikely that the pot will be big enough for you to stay with him. If the pot is big, what the hell are you doing in a big pot with a pair of Jacks in the first place?

Even if the guy "only" started with a three-flush, you're behind, and on balance, the pot isn't going to be big enough to justify look him up. If you never called when you were beaten on board, you wouldn't be far wrong. I make an exception if I have a strong draw and the other guy has an open pair but doesn't seem to be that much of a threat.
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  #30  
Old 12-01-2007, 03:09 PM
ceegee ceegee is offline
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Default Re: Low limit stud says it\'s correct to complete the bring in....

I can see why you would fold on 4th if they have open queens. He is not saying go ahead and call with only a better kicker, most of the time you want to call if you have a drawing hand as well, IE. JsJcQc[Kc] and your flush and straight is live. I see no reason in folding to a bet faced against queens. Open queens I may call then check fold If I don't improve.

My argument is against Poker CPA on raising UTG with JJ[2] on a non threatening board.


"Even if the guy "only" started with a three-flush, you're behind, and on balance, the pot isn't going to be big enough to justify look him up."

7-card Stud Hi: 500000 sampled outcomes
cards win %win lose %lose tie %tie EV
Js 2s Jh 329827 65.97 170161 34.03 12 0.00 0.660
Qc Tc 5c 170161 34.03 329827 65.97 12 0.00 0.340


That is with 3 clubs dead.
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