Thoughts on bet sizing

[Dazarath]

I was thinking about a couple of bet sizing concepts and I was hoping that this forum could give me some feedback on my ideas. The two concepts I wanted to discuss were 4-bet sizing and continuation betting in a 3-bet pot.

4-bet sizing:
Let's say we're in a 2/4 game, and the hero opens in the CO for 14. The BB 3-bets to 50. Now, a lot of players, if they are going to 4-bet, will 4-bet to 150ish or around the pot. But I was wondering is this really necessary? Let's say instead I 4-bet to 125 (or 130). If stacks are 100 BB, then are there any hands that can profitably call an extra 75 but not 100? In 4-bet pots, the opponent's implied odds are already almost cut down to nothing, so to me it seems like it's not really necessary to make a pot sized raise. The advantage of doing this would allow you to balance your 87s 4-bets with your AA 4-bets, while also making it cheaper for the times you're bluffing. Normally, if you make it 150, you're putting in an extra 136 to win ~64. But now, you'd be putting in 111 to win ~64, which gives you slightly better odds on the times you 4-bet something like a suited connector. Keep in mind that this is only worthwhile, though, if we can make the assumption that in the situations where we have the better hand, we're not giving up too much EV. Please discuss or if I'm wrong, I'd like to know what I'm missing here.

Continuation betting in 3-bet pots:
Sort of related to the above, is continuation betting after you 3-bet another player. Let's assume that my normal continuation bet is 3/4 pot. We'll say 100 BB stacks at 2/4 again. Villain opens for 14 in the CO and hero 3-bets from the blinds to 50. Villain calls and pot is now ~100. Because the pot is bloated already, I'm thinking that it's not necessary to c-bet 3/4 PSB in this situation. If I c-bet let's say 68 vs 76, I can't think of any hands that could profitably call one but not the other. Maybe someone could come up with an argument that even less is necessary. For example, if I could show (I'm not arguing that this is true, I'm just saying "if") only needed to c-bet 60, then I gain the two following advantages:

1) Since there is a lot of light 3-betting, we can assume that I miss the flop a decent amount. I know using the word "decent" doesn't mean anything, but it'll be a pain to try to calculate an exact number. I definitely miss the flop more than I would if my 3-betting range were AA-QQ/AK. So in the times where my c-bet doesn't take it down and I have nothing, I'm saving myself a little more money.
2) There are some mid-stakes players who counter light 3-betting by shoving over the c-bet. If I had c-bet 76, then the villain would shove 350 to win 176. But now, he's shoving 350 to win 160. So we manage to cut down his odds for shoving the flop and reduce the EV of the play by a little.

Of course, one can argue that it's trivial either way, and it's probably true. I guess it would be like discussing opening to 12 vs 14 vs 16. I actually wanted to discuss the 4-bet sizing more, as I think there is more merit to that.

One of the reasons I don't 4-bet light too often is that I feel that I'm getting terrible odds on the bluff. If I could be convinced that 4-betting a lesser amount would still have around the same EV when I have a monster, but would allow me to 4-bet light more profitably, then I would see a better reason to use that in my arsenal.

Thanks in advance to anyone who can give me useful feedback.

[Duck Rabbit]

4betting: I think that 4betting to the amounts you stated is fine. In general, I think that people view a 4bet as extremely strong whether you raise it to 125 or 165. I think the 3better is going to call/fold pretty much the same range of hands to each raise amount. The reason I like the smaller amount is because it lets me do it cheaper with my suited connectors and whatever else. When we do have a big hand like AA or KK, we're still not really losing value because the money is probably going in anyway.

3bet cbets: I don't like betting smaller amounts for these bets. I prefer to bet about 75 into a 100 pot at 2/4. I think by betting smaller here, you are inducing your opponent to make a play at you because your bet looks pretty weak. Since when we are 3betting lightly, we miss the flop fairly often, we don't really want villain to be making plays at us. By betting larger amounts, it makes it tougher for our opponent to try to make a play at us because it is more expensive and a raise (not a push) will essentially commit him.

[john kane]

4 bet sizing:

the only problem I can see here is that if the standard 4 bet so far at the table has been to $150, then your 4 bet will look weakish and so induce more calls/shoves. On the flip side though if you've already picked up AA/KK and got to showdown and raised to $125 with it then you'll gain the required FE.

as for c-betting in 3 bet pots, I guess the problem is by betting say $60 you are inducing a raise more often that say $76, given for table image players won't want to display that they are willing to fold to 60% pot c-bets vs a light 3 better, otherwise they get played about to often. Although I doubt you are missing out on any value when you do have your opponent beat, as given a turn fire the remaining chips go in on the river, whether you bet $60 or $76 on the river.

But I still think a lot of players don't want to show they are willing to fold to smaller 4bets and 3 bet c-bets due to the weakening effect it has on their image.

[Isura]

About 4-betting light, making it 125 doesn't give you that much better odds on the bluff. So its probably not possible to figure out a profitable 4-bet strategy that contains a lot of bluffy hands if you make it that much. I think 135 or so is good since it leaves about a PSB on the flop. Or otherwise I would make it very small, like 80ish. This is pretty much a minreraise, but it gives us more options postflop and also gives much better odds (about 1:1) on our bluff.

I agree that it's good to vary bet sizes on the c-bet. Flop texture is also an important factor here that wasn't mentioned. I lot of people don't think about it too much when multitabling, and it gives up quite a bit of EV.