Lets talk about w$wsf (more questions than content)

deaders · #1 10-10-2007, 10:44 AM

I don't remember where exactly, but I saw a comment in another thread today that said that good players have a W$wsf of 42-46, or somewhere around there. Id always thought that 40 or above was reasonable, personally mine is 40 exactly. Is this 42-46 number accurate?

If so, what is it that puts the best players that few percent higher? More aggression overall, folding less winners or a combination of that and other things? I realize that maybe I'm just asking 'how do I play better poker?' but thats not really what Im getting at - I would just like to know what people think of this stat. While discussing the pokerEV software and graphs people seem to say that the best players win more pots without a showdown, is it about achieving an optimal frequency between bluffing and betting made hands for value? (im not sure that even makes sense but hopefully you understand what I am getting at).

shandyboy · #2 10-10-2007, 10:52 AM

Without PT in front of me, i think mine is at 40/41, playing a nitty 16/18 and went to showdown at 24% (i think).

I think that is standard?
I'd be interested to know what difference being a LAG does?

SinkRox · #3 10-10-2007, 10:54 AM

Well, mine only hits 38%, I was quite worried... then I read the juicier / loose your tables are then the lower your w$wsf will be, and I table select a ton so hopefully that explains mine.

Maybe peeps with micro stakes stats can back this up... are w$wsf %'s noticibly lower at micros than ssnl?

Chicago Twister · #4 10-10-2007, 11:02 AM

My w$wsf over about 40k hands at nl50 is 48 over the long haul.

Miffed · #5 10-10-2007, 11:09 AM

i play 20/14 and im 39% but i dont spew enough lately. If you own its 42%+
However i get opps to showdown wayyyy to much, comes from being a limit donk, so i get good 3 street value versus fish

However i rule at table selection so i win big pots and might lose a few smaller ones.

ycjason · #6 10-10-2007, 11:32 AM

this stat alone is useless, it must be coupled with your w@sD and go to SD%. if someone pushes allin all the time on the flop, w$wsf is probably going to be in the high 90%.

Chicago Twister · #7 10-10-2007, 12:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
this stat alone is useless, it must be coupled with your w@sD and go to SD%. if someone pushes allin all the time on the flop, w$wsf is probably going to be in the high 90%.

[/ QUOTE ]

Its not useless alone. Its probably the stat that comes closest to being a metric for a player's postflop skill.

And your example is [censored] because that doesnt actually happen more than once in a blue moon. Why optimize your game for anything other than the normal case?

viper930 · #8 10-10-2007, 11:33 AM

W$WSF is definitely lower if you're playing with a ton of stations that simply arent folding. Your cbets will work less and you'll win huge pots and lose a bunch of smaller ones.

That said, it's usually higher as you get higher in stakes because people progressively fold more.

carrotsnake · #9 10-10-2007, 11:54 AM

Its important. Not as important as everyone started drooling over it after kotkis' EV graph, but very very close. If you consistently are around 40 or below, you are very easy to play against and probably shouln't move up anytime soon. This is not to say you aren't a winner, its to say that your fundamentals for higher levels are flawed and one of the biggest reasons that most people in this forum think higher levels are "so difficult" when they move up. They aren't trying to win enough pots and they fold way to much. Really bad combo.

Bramsterdam · #10 10-10-2007, 11:07 AM

[ QUOTE ]
Well, mine only hits 38%, I was quite worried... then I read the juicier / loose your tables are then the lower your w$wsf will be, and I table select a ton so hopefully that explains mine.

[/ QUOTE ]+1