[LO8] Two Pair in HU-Pot

[Jimbotbs]

Full Tilt Poker
Limit Omaha Hi/Lo Ring game
Limit: $2/$4
9 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (9 players) Hero is CO with 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
5 folds, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, Button calls, 2 folds.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (5.5SB, 2 players)
<font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">Button raises</font>, Hero calls.

Turn: A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (4.75BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, <font color="#cc0000">Button bets</font>, Hero calls.

River: 7[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (6.75BB, 2 players)
Hero checks, Button checks.

Results:
Final pot: 6.75BB

Villain was tight-aggressive.

Preflop: I raise to take the blinds because the table was tight. Should I have just called?

Flop: Standard?

Turn: I made two pair and decide to call him down.

Opinions?

[Big Dave D]

Standard.

gl

bdd

[Rainshine]

seems pretty standard to me, specially for being OOP

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
Preflop: I raise to take the blinds because the table was tight. Should I have just called?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Jim - You raise hoping to steal the blinds and win three bucks? My problem with that line of reasoning is I think your starting hand is worth more than three bucks in a $2/$4 game.

Still, your tactics would have worked out better for you if you'd had better luck with Button folding and then better luck with the cards of the flop. (And the result, whatever it was, could hardly have been disastrous for you, but maybe the result was a bit unsettling in that you realize it was not optimal).

Your starting hand is well above average, certainly good enough to raise before the flop. In another situation I might raise before the flop with it. However, in general, I would not raise before the flop with this hand. Instead, I'd want to keep as many opponents as possible in the hand with me.

In some other poker games limping with a hand strong enough to raise would be termed "slow playing." However that is not the best perspective to have when limping before the flop in Omaha-8. Instead, think of limping with this type of starting hand in Omaha-8 as "pulling." (I think that gives it a different, better, perspective).

An interesting love/hate aspect of Omaha-8 is everything can suddenly change. After the flop or after the turn, the fit can be such that this starting hand will need all the protection it can get, or you may want to promote your nut high or low into a scooper. At that point your hand will abruptly metamorphose into a pushing hand.

After the flop this starting hand will probably continue to be a pulling hand. But it may become a pushing hand. Hard to say without knowing the flop.

At any rate, before the flop, this starting hand is definitely a "pulling" hand. Indeed, most good Omaha-8 starting hands are "pulling" hands. And that is an aspect of starting hands regular Texas hold 'em players, even very successful ones, do not seem to understand.

You could be at a table where your opponents are gambling fools and unable to read your cards - and then it would make good sense to raise before the flop, even with a pulling hand.

But although it's hard to judge on the basis of only one hand, that does not seem to be the case here.

You should want to pull as many opponents into the action as possible.

Why is this hand a "pulling" hand, rather than a "pushing" hand? Because this hand will often make the nuts on the river, and even when it doesn't make the nuts, you will often end up with a winning non-nut hand.<ul type="square">• You have a suited ace, the nuts if the board flushes in your suit.
• You have the nut low if the board on the river has three low ranks without aces or deuces.
• If you make a straight it will tend to be the nut straight.
• If the board pairs and you make a full house, it will tend to beat an opponent's full house.
• If the board pairs and you don't make a full house, your trip jacks, trip tens, or trip deuces will beat those of an opponent who also ends up with trips and doesn't have an ace kicker.
• Your two pairs will tend to be better than an opponent's two pairs, if nobody has better than two pairs. (Happens a lot more than some apparently think).[/list]Bottom line: Instead of chasing people out and stealing the blinds, you should want potential customers who will end up holding non-nut hands and who will end up paying you off when you end up with a winner.

[ QUOTE ]
Flop: Standard?

[/ QUOTE ]For a full game, or even for several opponents seeing the flop, you missed a good enough flop fit to continue.

However here you only have one opponent and the flop is high. If you think your one opponent may not have much of a fit either, it makes some sense to take a stab at the pot.

But if you bet because you thought your hand/flop fit is better than your opponent's hand/flop fit, be aware there are lots of ways your opponent could have a better hand/flop fit and in addition, your opponent has position on you. And be aware that your opponent probably will know full well that you realize a good fit with this particular flop is less likely than with various other possible flops and that you might be doing exactly what you seem to be doing - taking a stab at the pot.

At any rate, you bet this flop, your opponent raises, and you're more or less screwed. You don't have much of a flop fit yourself (whether you realize it or not), but you can't tell if your opponent has a better flop fit or not (and you don't know if he realizes it or not). And since now there are 8.75 small bets in the pot and it will only cost you one small bet to see the turn, you call the raise.

You cannot like the way things have gone for you thus far. By raising your flop bet, your opponent may be executing the first step in a "free card" play. That's more of a Texas hold 'em ploy than an Omaha-8 ploy, but sometimes I see it and sometimes I use it myself in Omaha-8 play.
[ QUOTE ]
Turn: I made two pair and decide to call him down.

[/ QUOTE ]You actually should like the turn, but are afraid your opponent raised on the flop because he has a AKYZ, or possibly because he has QJYZ. So you check, planning to call your opponent down.

And then your opponent checks behind you, perhaps successfully executing the second step of a "free card" play. Or maybe Villain is simply playing coy, hoping to get a bet out of you on the river.

After the way you played the first betting round, you end up betting when you don't have a bet and checking when you do. Ironic, isn't it.

Buzz

[Olrik]

a few thoughts about the preflop raise:

my pto tells me that i make 0.4 BB/hand with any A2 hand. now even if i take into account that a) i dont have a really large sample size b) suck at o8 and c) OPs A2 hand is well above the average A2 hand i think wining 0.75 BB by just taking the blinds seems to be a good result.

while i understand the idea of pushing vs pulling hands (or at least i try to) i would argue that with everyone folding to us in late position we need some kind of standard action with any hand we want to play. openlimping the pullings hands and raising the pushing hands makes it easy for villians to read us (basicly like only raising with strong AA and A2 hands). assuming you follow my reasoning we are down to
a) openraising any hand we want to play
b) openlimp any hand we want to play
c) openlimp the pulling hands and fold playable pushing hands

this might be holdem mentality but dont we open up our range in o8 depending on position too?

[Big Dave D]

[ QUOTE ]
i think wining 0.75 BB by just taking the blinds seems to be a good result.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is where you are right and Buzz not playing online lets him down. I have nearly 60k hands and any A2 is also worth about .5BB for me too. So winning the blinds is a good result. Now I would probably limp first in with a lot of A2s, but probably not in the CO or BB and especially against tight players who are likely to pass.

gl

bdd

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
any A2 is also worth about .5BB for me too. So winning the blinds is a good result.

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Big Dave - Are you raising before the flop every time you have an ace-deuce hand? My first reaction is, "No wonder 'any A2' is worth 0.50BB."

That wasn't a fair thing for me to write - but it was irresistible - and meant in good natured humor. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

This particular ace-deuce hand is a rather nice starting hand:
A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img],T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img],J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
True, I don't play on-line, and thus my perspective has to be different and not as good for this on-line game as that of somebody who does - but I still think this nice starting hand is worth more than 0.75 BB. I still think you want customers after the flop if you can figure out how to get them. I still think your goal should not be merely to steal the blinds.

I understand the First Commandment of Texas Hold 'Em Poker: Thou shalt play to win the blinds.

And I'm advocating breaking that Commandment.

In addition, I may seem to be breaking the First Commandment of Omaha-8: Thou shalt play to scoop.

But actually I'm not breaking that commandment. I still want to scoop with this hand if I can figure out how to do it and win more than a crummy 0.75BB! 0.75BB is only a tenth of a not particularly big pot. 0.75 is bait! We don't eat the bait. We catch big marlins with the bait. I admit they're likely to be scrawny marlins in this uber-tight game which doesn't look like a very good fishing ground to me. (But that's another topic).

I do see your point, Big Dave: [ QUOTE ]
I would probably limp first in with a lot of A2s, but probably not in the CO or BB and especially against tight players who are likely to pass.

[/ QUOTE ]Your reasoning does make sense to me. However, I'm still going to limp with this hand from the cut-off position, even in that tight game after five folds. I still want to play this 0.5 BB bait to try to win more than 0.75 BBs. Maybe the difference between our points of view is simply in playing styles. (And I'm certainly not saying my usual playing style would work better than yours in your games).

Buzz

Edit: the above was a reply to an earlier post of yours, not your latest. I need to read your latest again before possibly replying.

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
dont we open up our range in o8 depending on position too?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Olrik - I don't know about "we." My own range depends on position and some other factors.
[ QUOTE ]
i would argue that with everyone folding to us in late position we need some kind of standard action with any hand we want to play.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree.[ QUOTE ]
openlimping the pullings hands and raising the pushing hands makes it easy for villians to read us (basicly like only raising with strong AA and A2 hands).

[/ QUOTE ]I suppose that's true if you don't use good sense. [ QUOTE ]
assuming you follow my reasoning we are down to
a) openraising any hand we want to play
b) openlimp any hand we want to play
c) openlimp the pulling hands and fold playable pushing hands

[/ QUOTE ]I follow your reasoning. However, I don't agree with your a, b, c conclusions. More goes into the decision to raise or not than merely whether the hand is a pushing or pulling hand. Sometimes I'll raise with a pulling hand and sometimes I'll limp with a pushing hand.

Rightly or wrongly, how I play a hand depends more on my opponents than on the cards I hold - but both matter. With this hand in this situation, rightly or wrongly, I would usually limp. When I limped, if you figured out what I was doing, of course you'd know I had a hand I wanted to limp with, just as if I raised, you'd know I had a hand I wanted to raise with. In either case, I think most opponents would still have trouble putting me on cards or maybe even on a range.

Buzz

[Olrik]

just assume unknown villians hence you have to base your decision wheter to play your hand or not entirely on position/cards. still no standard play?

[Buzz]

[ QUOTE ]
just assume unknown villians hence you have to base your decision wheter to play your hand or not entirely on position/cards. still no standard play?

[/ QUOTE ]Hi Olrik - We're talking about before the flop in the cut-off position after the action described by Jim, the opening poster. Right?

And I guess it has to be the first hand of the session against players who do not know us and who we do not know because we are assuming unknown Villains. (Or I guess we could simply say early in the session before we tentatively form any conclusions). Right?

And you want us to do the same thing every time, whatever our cards are????

(I want to make sure I'm understanding you correctly).

I'm not sure how to respond. It seems common-sensible to play some hands and fold others. However, it may not be obvious what hands should be played and what hands should be folded.

And for the hands we play, it seems common-sensible to limp with pulling hands and push with pushing hands. But it may not be obvious to us, let alone our opponents, which is which.

How will it be possible for anyone who has never seen us play and who does not know us to know what we are doing?

And if we're up against opponents who have seen us play, then presumably we have also seen them play. And then other factors other than whether we have a pulling or a pushing hand affect whether we limp or raise.

Buzz

[ QUOTE ]
i think wining 0.75 BB by just taking the blinds seems to be a good result.

[/ QUOTE ]And to me attempting to win only 0.75 big bets seems a waste of this fine starting hand. Moreover, when we miss a fit with the flop and would prefer to get out of a hand cheaply, having wasted an extra 0.50 big bet seems ill advised.

But don't misunderstand. I don't mind investing an extra 0.50 big bet before the flop with this fine starting hand. Indeed, I like having more money go into the pot - just so long as it doesn't push potential customers away or make them more wary or reticent when we make a nice connection with the flop.

The point is, this is a pulling hand! That doesn't mean I don't want to see money going into the pot on the first betting round! But at the same time, raising has certain ramifications. You don't just win more money from your opponents when you raise when you have an edge. You also lose more money when you lose and you also make your opponents more wary when you connect. The net you make on the hand is not necessarily affected positively when you raise before the flop with an edge (unless you get all your money in with a short stack).

[ QUOTE ]
while i understand the idea of pushing vs pulling hands (or at least i try to) i would argue that with everyone folding to us in late position we need some kind of standard action with any hand we want to play.

[/ QUOTE ]I disagree.

[ QUOTE ]
open limping the pullings hands and raising the pushing hands makes it easy for villians to read us

[/ QUOTE ]That's not what I am advocating. I keep writing that what I do, rightly or wrongly, depends as much or more on my opponents as on my cards. And that is what I keep meaning. I guess that must somehow not be clear to you - but I can't see how. I'm not being sarcastic or argumentative. I'm simply baffled.
[ QUOTE ]
(basicly like only raising with strong AA and A2 hands).

[/ QUOTE ]Limping with pulling hands and raising with pushing hands would be similar to that, but encompassing a much broader range than that. The pulling range is every single pulling hand we play. Similarly, the pushing range is every single pushing hand we play. And "only" does not apply. Depending on the opponents playing and watching, sometimes I'll raise with a pulling hand and sometimes I'll limp with a pushing hand.
[ QUOTE ]
assuming you follow my reasoning we are down to
a) openraising any hand we want to play
b) openlimp any hand we want to play
c) openlimp the pulling hands and fold playable pushing hands

[/ QUOTE ]Well... I thought I was following your reasoning, but I don't follow the logic in that last part.<ul type="square">• I'm not openraising any hand I want to play.
• I'm not openlimping any hand I want to play.
• I'm not openlimping the pulling hands and folding playable pushing hands.[/list]Instead I'm generally openlimping the pulling hands and openraising the pushing hands.
[ QUOTE ]
this might be holdem mentality but dont we open up our range in o8 depending on position too?

[/ QUOTE ]Yes. The best course of action for any hand before the flop depends on position, who has acted, who is yet to act and what has transpired, both on the current deal and history of past deals and actions against these opponents.

Much of what to do before the flop in an Omaha-8 game seems relatively simple. However, some of what to do seems more complicated. Many times various factors other than the cards are involved in my decisions.

Buzz