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#41
03-05-2006, 10:44 PM
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Re: Fighting fire with fire
[ QUOTE ]
Students will have the choice of participating wiht partners of their choice or having partners randomly assigned. Trained instructors will guide the students in practical excercises including intercourse, anal and oral sex. [/ QUOTE ] Can this be a required course in college, too? 
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#42
03-05-2006, 11:39 PM
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Re: Fighting fire with fire
[ QUOTE ]
A little bit OT for this thread, but over the years I have read many statements of the form "Man is the only animal that ...". I don't recall any of them being correct. [/ QUOTE ] Really? As far as I know, man is the only animal that can plan into the distant future (like decades), and not only that, form alternate plans and then logically deduce the likely outcomes (consequences) of those alternate plans, thus allowing him to rationally choose better plans rather than poorer ones.
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#43
03-06-2006, 12:04 AM
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Re: Fighting fire with fire
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As far as I know, man is the only animal that can plan into the distant future ... [/ QUOTE ] Squirrels gather nuts. Bears overeat to get fat to prepare to hibernate. Birds migrate thousands of miles in preparation for winter. etc. Just because our plans are more advanced (as we are indeed the highest order animal) does not mean that planning is unique to us. The rest of the post is just quantitative details not qualitative differences. No one is arguing that any animals are as intelligent as humans, but there are still degrees of intelligence. Read more about animals--you may be surprised. Gary Paulsen's "Woodsong" shows a wonderful example of a dog with a literal sense of humor.
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#44
03-06-2006, 05:24 AM
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Fear and Trembling
[ QUOTE ]
Over the years I have read many statements of the form "Man is the only animal that ...". I don't recall any of them being correct. [/ QUOTE ]Here's one that's correct: Man is the only animal that is conscious of both his own existence and his inevitable death. This is actually the only attribute that Man has and the rest of the animals don't - but it's a doozy.
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#45
03-06-2006, 11:41 AM
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Re: Fear and Trembling
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] Over the years I have read many statements of the form "Man is the only animal that ...". I don't recall any of them being correct. [/ QUOTE ]Here's one that's correct: Man is the only animal that is conscious of both his own existence and his inevitable death. This is actually the only attribute that Man has and the rest of the animals don't - but it's a doozy. [/ QUOTE ] Er, and why do you presume that apes, whales and dolphins are so very stupid as to observe their friends and family getting old and dying, but yet are not to be able to realize that they are heading down the same path too, as they age? How could you possibly KNOW that they are this stupid and unaware? I would doubt that they are as "dumb animals" as most people seem to presume. For that matter, how do you even know that dogs cannot realize that they are getting old, infirm, and will be dying soon? Dogs very may well not be aware of that, who knows. But some apes, and the whale family, I would guess, probably ARE aware of it.
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#46
03-06-2006, 01:25 PM
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To the dogs
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I would doubt that [animals] are as "dumb" as most people seem to presume. [/ QUOTE ]It's not a question of smarts, dummy. [ QUOTE ] Why do you presume that apes, whales and dolphins are so very stupid as to observe their friends and family getting old and dying, but yet are not to be able to realize that they are heading down the same path too, as they age? [/ QUOTE ]Because the rest of the animals are provenly incapable of registering (the passage of) time as we do. They accumulate experience and they also sense grief or joy or survivalist kinship but these are elementary feelings and in no way comparable to the complexity of consciousness. We humans are conscious of time and our existence (as finite), but the rest of the animals not. How so? Simply put, if dogs could realize that they all (we all) are heading towards certain death, they would also be able (have the means) to express that realization - and their reaction to it. They would (like humans) do something about it. So either the dogs do not know - or they have the best poker faces in the world. 
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#47
03-06-2006, 01:45 PM
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Re: Fighting fire with fire
I have my personal values. And everyone else can have theirs. Presto, happy world!
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#48
03-06-2006, 01:47 PM
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Re: To the dogs
[ QUOTE ]
Because the rest of the animals are provenly incapable of registering (the passage of) time as we do. [/ QUOTE ] Provenly??? [ QUOTE ] They accumulate experience and they also sense grief or joy or survivalist kinship but these are elementary feelings and in no way comparable to the complexity of consciousness. [/ QUOTE ] Unfounded assertion, especially with regards to dolphins and chimpanzees, which is the greatest likely exception to your very broad assertion. [ QUOTE ] We humans are conscious of time and our existence (as finite), but the rest of the animals not. [/ QUOTE ] Unproven assertion again especially with regard to the apes and whale family. [ QUOTE ] How so? Simply put, if dogs could realize that they all (we all) are heading towards certain death, they would also be able (have the means) to express that realization - and their reaction to it. They would (like humans) do something about it. [/ QUOTE ] Humans do very little about it, and what they do is at present merely a forestalling of the inevitable. Dolphins don't have prehensile hands, so they CAN'T do much about anything in the way of tools. However they are highly intelligent. Given their lifestyle and environment, they rerally don't need much more at all in the way of tools than they already have. Their languagfe is highly complex and they and perhaps other certain members of the whale family are the ONLY beings on the planet with a higher brain/body mass ratio than humans (which ratio is loosely but well correlated to inteligence when comparing species. So it is actually quite possible that dolphins are both more aware and smarter than we humans are. I likely agree with your theory about most of the lower animals, but you can't just apply that reasoning (or assertions, as the case may be) to apes and whales and especially dolphins. Just because their environment and lifestyle does not necessitate tools and buildings etc. does not mean they don't discuss highly complex topics amongst themselves. And given the brain mass/body mass correlation between species and the highest brain mass/body mass ratio of all species belonging to dolphins, don't be too surprised if eventually humans crack their language and discover some truly amazing things. Humans have a higher brain mass/body mass ratio than all species except for dolphins (and possibly some other whales, not sure on all whales). The dumbest animal species have very low brain mass/body mass ratios. This is a pretty reliable correlation between species. Really, all you've done is offered some assertions and speculation. You have consciousness and self-awareness yet you simply presume that even the most intelligent non-human animal species cannot. Talk about hubris, wow.
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#49
03-06-2006, 02:30 PM
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Re: Fighting fire with fire
"Family Values" as currently promoted by Dobson/Robertson/Falwell/Far RW Republicans:
Sex is wrong except for procreation. Evolution never happened, Creationism is actually science, not mythology. Anything even remotely associated with homosexuality is wrong and anybody practicing it will burn in hell. Everything in the Bible is the unvarnished truth, and it should be followed to the letter. The only exceptions to the last item are: Ignore anything to do with turning the other cheek, caring for the sick and the poor, loving thy neighbor, thou shalt not kill.
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#50
03-06-2006, 02:44 PM
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Re: Fighting fire with fire
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] As far as I know, man is the only animal that can plan into the distant future ... [/ QUOTE ] Squirrels gather nuts. Bears overeat to get fat to prepare to hibernate. Birds migrate thousands of miles in preparation for winter. etc. Just because our plans are more advanced (as we are indeed the highest order animal) does not mean that planning is unique to us. The rest of the post is just quantitative details not qualitative differences. No one is arguing that any animals are as intelligent as humans, but there are still degrees of intelligence. Read more about animals--you may be surprised. Gary Paulsen's "Woodsong" shows a wonderful example of a dog with a literal sense of humor. [/ QUOTE ] Instincts sculpted by evolution do not plans make.
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