insane push or standard?

[Temp Hutter]

2nd level of WSOP ME 100-200
I limp UTG with 77. Folds to SB and he raises to 700. I call the extra 500 and the flop comes 456 rainbow. SB bets 700 and I raise to 2,200. SB thinks for just a few seconds and makes it 7,200 or 5,000 more. I started the hand with about 28K and SB has about 2.5K less than that. I think for about 20 seconds and move all in. Is this insane or is this standard? My read was that I was obviously up against a large overpair, but that even AA would lay down to this bet.

[uclabruinz]

This is entirely dependent upon live read. I agree he almost always has a big pair, so it really depends on if he looks and acts like the type of player that is capable of folding those pairs to your shove.

[Todd Terry]

Shoving with 10 outs with 2 cards to come never qualifies as insane. Worst case scenario is he calls with an overpair and you're a 60-40 dog. Even if he has a set (which wouldn't make a lot of sense) you're around 70-30. Shoving just seems so much better than calling or folding. Calling your shove with an overpair here would be an extremely bad play IMO, but that doesn't mean that there aren't plenty of players in the ME who would do it. Just shove faster next time, unless the delay was not abnormal for how you had been playing.

[Tyler Durden]

I like flatcalling the flop but as played I like the shove.

[Cornell Fiji]

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I like flatcalling the flop but as played I like the shove.

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[s33w33d]

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I like flatcalling the flop but as played I like the shove.

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[NYWalker]

[ QUOTE ]
2nd level of WSOP ME 100-200
I limp UTG with 77. Folds to SB and he raises to 700. I call the extra 500 and the flop comes 456 rainbow. SB bets 700 and I raise to 2,200. SB thinks for just a few seconds and makes it 7,200 or 5,000 more. I started the hand with about 28K and SB has about 2.5K less than that. I think for about 20 seconds and move all in. Is this insane or is this standard? My read was that I was obviously up against a large overpair, but that even AA would lay down to this bet.

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This is a very interesting hand, I like the push if we are up against a decent player.



However,
1. From his bet and re-raise on the flop, I don't think he's capable of folding to a push. I'm not sure why he re-raise the flop, for value? or for information (plan to fold to a push)?

On the other hand,
2. He may have 88.
3. It's also possible he has a set ...

Given the situation (you don't know too much about the player and the stage of the tournament), it's a tough decision to push.

At this level, I may just call the flop and see his turn action to evaluate.

[Temp Hutter]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
2nd level of WSOP ME 100-200
I limp UTG with 77. Folds to SB and he raises to 700. I call the extra 500 and the flop comes 456 rainbow. SB bets 700 and I raise to 2,200. SB thinks for just a few seconds and makes it 7,200 or 5,000 more. I started the hand with about 28K and SB has about 2.5K less than that. I think for about 20 seconds and move all in. Is this insane or is this standard? My read was that I was obviously up against a large overpair, but that even AA would lay down to this bet.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is a very interesting hand, I like the push if we are up against a decent player.



However,
1. From his bet and re-raise on the flop, I don't think he's capable of folding to a push. I'm not sure why he re-raise the flop, for value? or for information (plan to fold to a push)?

On the other hand,
2. He may have 88.
3. It's also possible he has a set ...

Given the situation (you don't know too much about the player and the stage of the tournament), it's a tough decision to push.

At this level, I may just call the flop and see his turn action to evaluate.

[/ QUOTE ]

In general I hate calling when a raise will win the pot. Obviously I thought the first raise had a chance to win the pot. If I call the flop bet (instead of raise) and do not improve on the turn then what? Call a big turn bet? Try and re-raise a big turn bet? Hope he checks? Fold?

[bluesbassman]

I vote insane. [img]/images/graemlins/tongue.gif[/img]

My read is that a big pair would put you on exactly the type of hand you had, a pair with a draw. Would AA-KK really fold to the chance you flopped a set?

If I make that raise on the flop, it's because I want to take the pot right there, but plan to fold to a re-raise. The other possible line is of course to call the flop, since you have decent showdown equity. (Probably just check/fold on the turn if you don't improve, but I'm a weak-tight nit.)

So what happened when you pushed?

[NYWalker]

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In general I hate calling when a raise will win the pot.

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Agree. But what do you do when a raise didn't win. He can be a station or a guy only plays his own big hand without thinking about yours.

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Obviously I thought the first raise had a chance to win the pot.

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I understand. But when your raise triggered a re-raise rather than a fold, maybe you should stay with your first plan which is generally folding. (Calling is good if both of you are deeper than you are)

Our plan (the first raise) was to take down the pot by telling him he's behind and we also want to know he can fold over pair, but he comes back re-raise us which gives us "NO" to both questions we asked. For this kind of villain, when we push, he would mostly think "why you push if you have the nuts?"

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If I call the flop bet (instead of raise) and do not improve on the turn then what? Call a big turn bet? Try and re-raise a big turn bet? Hope he checks? Fold?

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First, we have position on him. His hand must be much stronger than ours to bet the turn OOP. If you don't improve on the turn, fold to a big turn bet because we're done with the hand. Odd isn't right for us to move on plus this seems to be the right way to play against this guy.

On the other hand, he bet 700 on the flop, probably would bet 1400 on the turn and will generally check the river.
If he checks, you bet and can generally take down the pot. He's not committed and not likely to cr with air on the turn. But if a scare card for his hand falls on the turn/river, you can bluff him.



(just my own thought, still I like the push against decent player)