Probably only post on this, dont really expect me to reply

Boosted J · #1 05-29-2007, 03:47 PM

Two things:

First off,
Just a fact I happened to remember this past week that totally slipped my mind. I played in a live 25/50/100 game under the "filthy stake", and I booked a solid win, and told this to filthy. If I really wanted to be a dirtbag, I could've told him I lost $25k. But, I'm not like that. I try to be as honest as possible, and in a live game he has absolutely no idea whether I win or lose, and I won, so I told him I won, when I could've very easily told him I lost, and take the money.

Second, I basically gave filthy a chance at receiving 50% of my profits at 5/10 NL for free, and he demanded more and other unneccessary/nuisance requirements that I won't oblige by. I was being more than fair in offering this, and I won't put up with him demanding even more from what I "technically don't owe". Anyways, to the point, here are the E-mails. I don't think we'll be having anymore, either. Just wanted to show you guys I honestly tried to get him a very solid portion of his money back and I tried to be very fair to him. Take this for whatever it's worth. If you think I'm scum, great, I don't care. If you think I'm okay, cool. I don't care much anymore as you can see from me ignoring repetitive questions that answers wouldn't(and weren't) listened to anyways. A lot of you guys gave me 0 shot and just wanted to get on the hammer train against me, and I loathe you all for that. I won't be posting anymore on 2p2 at all anymore, not that it means that much.

First initial E-mail from Filth to me:

Sup Justin

I wanted to give you the opportunity to resolve this privately - it's becoming a big deal on 2+2, but I'm hoping we can get it settled between us, and avoid any more drama. I think we both know that it's best for everyone, and we can put our egos on hold for a minute and just settle up like adults.

I should let you know, on the advice of many 2+2ers, that I have consulted an attorney experienced with these sorts of collections and gaming. He has read over the entire thread, and our entire conversations, and he is completely aware of the situation that has developed. With his advice, I wanted to offer you the following options, which I think are more than fair given everything that has transpired.

Basically, the lawyer feels the "agreement" we had was a result of you intentionally misleading me with regard to the term "make up". It was beyong obvious to you, to the lawyer, and to everyone else on 2+2 that I had no idea what that term meant. Sure, the disagreement over the terms of our agreement was my own, but it was the result of your intentionally misleading me about the terms. You kept things fuzzy and unclear on purpose, and this negates that issue. My lawyer is confident we would win on that claim if this did have to be taken further (which is something I think we should both avoid for a milllion different reasons).

Although I feel that the whole 60k was a loan, the initial 30k was a clear loan and the lawyer agrees. You feel there was a "conversion" to a staking arrangement. But I'm sure you can understand why that's ridiculous, as there was absolutely ZERO upside to me converting a loan to a stake, especially when money has been lost already. No one would agree to something like that, and I definitely did not. As far as the 2nd 30k, at BEST it was a very fuzzy stake agreement, and at worst (as the lawyer feels), it was outright misleading on your part in an effort to steal my money and never pay me back.

Now come on, we're both poker players and we'll be running into each other for years to come, whether it be in the high stakes community or live tournaments. There's no reason to continue with any sort of hostility. What I want to offer you, before I take this any further with the lawyer, is a fair resolution for both of us, which we can do BEHIND THE SCENES.

Now, once we're all settled I would be happy to post anything you want on 2+2.. that you made good on your obligation.. that I conceded... whatever you want me to post, to help you restore your reputation. For a poker player who is heavily involved in high stakes staking arrangements, I know your reputation is everything, and it's obviously been tarnished somewhat here. I'm sure you'll agree that restoring your rep is a big deal, and I'll definitely help you with that once we're settled up. There have been questions on 2+2 about the layers of staking that you're currently doing and have done in the past and whether or not there was a 2nd person that you borrowed and returned 10k to and the 3rd person who sent you 15k when you were dealing with me. If we can settle this now, I would be willing to confirm your claims without first looking at your transaction history. I'm sure that will be a big step in restoring your credibility.

So here's what I think is fair, and let's just get this thing resolved. My attorney is all ready to file papers and hash this out in court, and that's the last thing I want to do to a fellow poker player over something we shold be able to just settle as adults. Okay, so even though my lawyer says you owe me the entire 60k, that it was all a loan and there was no risk for me, I'm willing to settle for less because of all the fuzziness and because I just want to keep this out of court for both of our sakes.

Let's assume the original 30k was a loan, and the 2nd 30k was a stake with "make up", which I now understand. So you should pay me back the 30k loan, and the 2nd 30k I can decide to restake you, or end the staking relationship. I haven't decided what I'd do yet, but if you send me back the original 30k loan, I could consider whether to end the stake (which I would do formally with you to keep everything out in the open), or have someone put out a new stake of like 10k or something and try to grind out the rest for 50% of the profits. We could decide when we wanted to end the stake, either after you've reached 30k, or after a set amount of profit, whatever we both agree to. Or I could just end the stake and basically cut my losses at 30k, which sucks for me, but I'm considering doing it.

Another option I'm willing to throw out there is you just send me 45k (split the difference between 30k and 60k), and YOU end the stake. I'll agree that 45k even makes us free and clear, and you don't owe me the other 15k. My lawyer definitely feels I'd just be throwing away 15k there, but it's something I'm willing to do as long as we can settle this promptly and put this behind us.

I know you're not exactly rolling in online funds right now, so I'd give you 30 days to settle up with me. You could send me 5k now (or within the week) as a down payment and a gesture of good faith, and the rest within a month. I'm really hoping we could work things out this way. I'm really sorry it blew up the way it did man. I just feel like I was being a good guy and was taken advantage of, and I'm trying to put that past me without anything blowing up any further. My lawyer is really pushing me to take this as far as it needs to go, and is confident I can get the full 60k back, but [censored] that, I'd rather just settle this now and between us without getting lawyers in the mix.

And again, I will definitely post all over 2+2 that this is resolved, with whatever details (or NO details if you prefer) that will help restore your reputation. You're obviously a good poker player and I want you to be well bankrolled in the future, and perhaps we will both be holders of multiple WSOP bracelets.

Let me know what you think. I'm taking the first step here in contacting you directly and not making it all public, in hopes that cooler heads will prevail when it's just you and me talking, and we'll just settle this up now.

Email me when you get a chance and we'll work out the details. Later man.

Phil

Filth's second E-mail to me(I hadn't responded yet for reasons noted in my first reply to him:

Hey Justin.

I emailed you two days ago, and I'm going to give you the benefit of the doubt that you haven't had a chance to reply yet.

On the other hand, this is obviously an issue that needs to be solved, and I want to follow up with you today to reiterate my points from the other day's email. I'm hoping we could just solve this here and now and not take this any further. As you can see from the 2+2 thread, many people are questioning the exact transactions that took place and whether part of the 60k was used to return loans. They're questioning whether or not someone did replenish your account with 15k and if not, then you would owe me that 15k back. Do you realize that if we push this to court that every minute detail will be dug out, not to mention even more attorney and court fees and a huge expense on our own time? (And if you lost the case, you'd be the one paying for these costs.) And do you realize that if there happens to be a discrepancy in our "deal" or your claims, then your case is over and then your reputation will truly be irreparable.

I wouldn't enjoy seeing your boosted corporation to fall apart like that, seeing that you already have your own website.. gear.. logo.. and everything. And I would rather not pay any more attorney fees, if possible. And it would be truly asinine for you to pay the fees to hire your own attorney to show up in court, which would take 3-6 months and probably about 10-15k in attorney fees and travel expenses, when you could have just sent me a little more than that to end the controversy and restore your reputation. Maybe 3-6 months from now when we're in court, you would wonder why didn't you just send me the money in the first place and avoid having the situation blown full-scale like that - not to mention the fact that my lawyer is confident to recover the whole 60k if we took this to court. But in the grand sceme of things, I'm sure you agree your reputation is worth more than 60k.

I absolutely believe it's not too late to save your reputation. If I were you, I'd go with the option of sending me 30k cash and making up the other 15k through the stake instead of sending me 45k. That way, people will know that not only did you pay me back, but you lived up to your word in providing make up and keeping true to your claim of 100% no loss for me.

Email me back to tell me which option you chose so we can start restoring your reputation, and maybe even our friendship. And like I said before, if you're short on cash at the moment, you can just send me 5k now and the rest within a month.

Phil

My first response to Filth:

Filthy,

Going to write you a longish E-mail tomorrow since you're not on AIM right now. I'm extraordinarily sleepy right now and won't put my thoughts down well, but I intend on writing to you tomorrow.

-Justin

My second E-mail to Filth:

Phillip,

I'd like to talk to you about this on AIM so I have live responses to work with. E-mailing is a bit tedious. What I don't need, however, is you telling me the pros and cons of my situation as I know exactly what is going on, you don't need to push me in a certain direction with threats of court, because that does not scare me in the smallest way, I'm going to do what I think is right whatever I think it may require regardless of what I have to go through, because that's just the type of person I am.

What I decided I am willing to do is put the stake up for you, myself, and play 5/10 mostly(at least at first) and we will split the profits 50/50 for a while until we reach $60k, whereas you will make $30k back, the same deal you were going to do with RedDragon/Neutrality, but I will be in his spot so it will just be me and you working the deal. That's taking a very large step to do that, since I could put money up myself and retain 100% of the profits if I really wanted to, but I'd like the opportunity to win some of your money back, even though I'm not obligated to do that, and I'm going to swallow my businessman like mentality for just a minute, and that's what I will do. Therefore, you won't have to send me anymore money and you will eventually get paid up to $30k as I grind, grind, grind. As soon as you give the word, I will start counting me playing 5/10 for half the profits to be given to you. Once I work up the bankroll a little bit, I will mix in some 10/20 possibly too to maybe get your money back a little quicker, we'll play that by year though, as I don't want to make any firm committments besides playing 5/10 at the moment.

I have been extremely busy this past week with multiple doctor appointments, so I haven't gotten back to you promptly, and I apologize for that.

-Justin

Filth's Reply:

Hey Justin.

AIM is too distracting for my mind. Communicating through email is easier for me to keep my attorney posted.

What you have proposed sounds like a plan, and I will agree to it if we keep the stake until you reach 90k in profits. Originally, I did not know I could recover the whole 60k. I'm only willing to settle for 45k out of court because it will save us a lot of time.

I will agree to your plan if you agree to stake yourself at least 50k for 5/10. And if you drop to 30k, you'll drop to 3/6 or replenish the stake to 50k. And if you play 3/6 and drop to 20k, you'll replenish the account to 50k. I doubt that will happen though because I do think you're a very good poker player. But if there's no guarantee that I would make my money back, it would be very silly for me to agree to this.

I also want everything to be out in the open. Will you be solely playing the stake on Boosted J? Will you be solely playing on FTP? How often will you be playing on this stake? I don't want there to be any sort of confusion at all so let's get all the details out.

Let's finalize the details so we can get this started and I will post on 2+2 that you are living up to your word.

Phil

My last reply to him:

Phil,

I offered to put up the stake myself which would lead to no more direct loss from you, a basic freeroll to getting $30k back. I'm not going to play and win $90k back while you're getting half.

Also, I wouldn't be willing to use 50 buyins for 5/10, or even drop down to 3/6. I would make an attempt to get your money back at 5/10, as 5/10 is already lower than I lost the money. Of course there's no guarantee you get your money back unless you continue staking me until I rebound and eventually win your money back, this was the case since the beginning as I kept saying "Phil, keep putting me in, keep putting me in and I'll win your money back", some quotes that you neglected to include in the original thread that I distinctly remember.

This is your best opportunity to recover money. If you're not putting up any more money, why should you even be getting 50% of the profits in the first place? That's how nice I was trying to be, but obviously you're on a 1 way path and can't see any day light. I tried negotiating the absolute best I could offer. If this doesn't fancy you, then once again, I'm sorry.

-Justin

James282 · #2 05-29-2007, 03:54 PM

first, time to go read it!

greg nice · #3 05-29-2007, 03:59 PM

blah waste of a read

James282 · #4 05-29-2007, 04:00 PM

[ QUOTE ]
A lot of you guys gave me 0 shot and just wanted to get on the hammer train against me, and I loathe you all for that.

[/ QUOTE ]

cue admo for a "hammer train" picture please