PLO8 what do you do with a mid open-ended straight flush draw?

Gone Forever · #1 07-09-2007, 08:16 PM

Full Tilt Poker Game #2899378418: $10 + $1 Sit & Go (22119519), Table 1 - 60/120 - Pot Limit Omaha H/L - 19:28:47 ET - 2007/07/09

Seat 1: MUDCAT 24 (3,839)
Seat 2: gyarb (700)
Seat 3: Alex77 (2,186)
Seat 4: speedtechnics (1,915)
Seat 5: ClipperJockey (1,215)
Seat 6: Rags4u (3,345)
Seat 7: I Hatebreed I (300)
speedtechnics posts the small blind of 60
ClipperJockey posts the big blind of 120
The button is in seat #3

*** HOLE CARDS ***
Dealt to ClipperJockey [T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

Rags4u has 15 seconds left to act
Rags4u folds
I Hatebreed I calls 120
MUDCAT 24 folds
gyarb calls 120
Alex77 folds
speedtechnics calls 60
ClipperJockey checks

*** FLOP *** [Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]

speedtechnics checks
ClipperJockey checks
I Hatebreed I checks
gyarb bets 480
speedtechnics folds
ClipperJockey raises to 960
I Hatebreed I folds
gyarb calls 100, and is all in
ClipperJockey shows [T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]
gyarb shows [9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
Uncalled bet of 380 returned to ClipperJockey

*** TURN *** [Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]] [K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]

*** RIVER *** [Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] [4[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]

ClipperJockey shows two pair, Tens and Fours, for high
gyarb shows a pair of Fours, for high
ClipperJockey wins the pot (1,640) with two pair, Tens and Fours
gyarb stands up
No low hand qualified

Okay. I hate this hand. Do you guys ever find yourself in the BB with a hand like this just praying somebody will raise so you don't have to play it?

So now I'm here with this hand I hate and I flop an open-ended straight flush draw. I gotta be honest when I say I don't find myself in these kinds of situations that much so I'm not 100% on how to go about playing it.

My initial thinking was to check because I'm out of position to two players and I'd like to see the turn for free (or as cheaply as possible). I don't want to think about if I bet and get raised or check-raised.

The person to my right didn't show any strength and then folded to a late position pot bet. I'm always a little suspicious of people that are last to act jumping when nobody shows any strength.

So I'm here with my pair of 10s and my OESFD facing a pot bet, which is essentially an all in... I also realize the I Hatebreed I doesn't have any chips and that he'd probably just push it himself if he had spades or a pair in the first place. I know he's probably not calling the original bet, but, I want to try to hammer out any doubts he may have had as to calling with any other hand. Even though it'd be correct to call in his spot with pretty much any hand at all, I got the feeling that he wouldn't do this and probably did not understand that it'd be a correct move. I raised to try to psychologically intimidate him into folding. Showing that another player was in great danger of losing before him and that if he put his money in he was probably losing too may have given him the glimmer of hope he needed to fold and see one last hand. I don't really know if that's how it went down on his end, but, I raised anyway.

The question is do I want to run my hand against the original bettor?

I have a feeling that the original bettor probably only has a NLD possibly with a pair. I decide I'm going to raise.

I really don't know what's "proper" play with these types of hands. I do know I don't really like playing them.

Opinions?

bbartlog · #2 07-09-2007, 10:11 PM

It's a good hand to try to get HU with. Obviously if you face two villains you're way more likely to be screwed, but against any one hand you're unlikely to be a big dog. So I like the way you played it here.
But usually if I'm already HU or likely to be so without pushing hard I prefer to keep something back to push on the turn (if villain allows it). This is so that if I'm up against a nut flush draw I can probably take the pot down on the turn.

Omaha8sPoker · #3 07-10-2007, 02:07 AM

IMO you played it very well...I agree with being suspicious of a late position bettor as he can have anything from a set, 2 pair, or what he had a low draw and he is just making a semi-bluff at it...

By checking here you:
1. Are NOT building a pot out-of-position with a hand that can be deemd speculative at best...
2. You can see the action from all 3 people before it gets around to you...So if you check in the BB, the guy behind you checks, the button bets and the SB goes over the top you can muck this easily...

Agree with bbart, in a HU situation you most likely aren't gonna be THAT huge of a 'dog unless he has a specific hand and I don't like looking for those "monsters under the bed" situations...

I think beginners can learn a lot from this hand as it shows how NOT to get involved in a large multi-way pot out-of-position with a marginal hand...

Hope you took this one down...

sharky21222 · #4 07-10-2007, 03:14 AM

looks like a sucker hand to me,i would check call a min bet,any more than the min i would fold

wackjob · #5 07-10-2007, 11:26 AM

This looks like a trouble hand to me. So easily dominated in both ways where you are drawing to 2 outs to get only half the pot anyways. I think I would play it safe here and wait for a better spot.

bbartlog · #6 07-10-2007, 11:59 AM

Not easily dominated by one hand. You would need to be up against something like AQwx suited in spades to be really in bad shape (or some premium hand like A23J with spades which would have raised preflop). Obviously in a cash game you would ditch this because the reverse implied odds are gross, but in a tournament situation where the pot on the flop is more than a third the size of your stack already I think this is a good spot to blast away.

Omaha8sPoker · #7 07-10-2007, 12:35 PM

The people who are saying this is a horrible hand are nuts...BBart again with his infinite wisdom is correct in every aspect of his post...

In tournament situations you CANNOT wait around for AA23ds, you have to at some point get in there and gamble (within reason)...This is a very reasonable hand to "gamble" with as the bet is coming from late position after the table has checked around, SB has folded and we only need to get through one other player...

And where do you get that he is only drawing to half the pot for 2 outs? How do you know that the LP is not donking it up and betting strong with top two-no low, a set with no low, etc...

I was in the PLO8 $10 with rebuys tourney and had a guy check raise me all-in after I bet out pot on a board of 655, 2 diamonds when I held A874, A sooted...I figured since he limped into the pot the odds of him having a great hand weren't that strong and I went with my read that I had some outs...He turned over AKKT, unsooted and I scooped a huge pot when I made my straight on the river...I was a substantial favorite on that hand when the money went in...Would I play it this way in a cash game? I may or may not depending on my opponent...You can't always be looking for the "monsters under the bed" hands or you'll never win in this game...