100NL Fold KK Preflop (again)? Hands Included

Artsemis · #1 09-06-2007, 12:19 AM

I read the FAQ posts. It offers both sides but it did mention that this forum tends to not like this discussion, however they were from 2005 and the games have changed a bit since then as well.

These are some (non-selective) of my full-stack PFAI KK hands out of my last 30k hands (when I reformatted and lost previous data in PT). I'm well aware of the sample size but the fact that stands out to me is that in the ones where opponent bets, I raise, he shoves -- I've felt like I was against AA every single time in these but called anyways.

Thoughts?

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($102.25)
Hero ($100.40)
SB ($107.55)
BB ($293.80)
UTG ($79.65)
MP ($99)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $11, 2 folds, UTG raises to $30, Hero raises to $100.4, UTG calls $49.65 (All-In).

Flop: ($160.80) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($160.80) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($160.80) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $160.80

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ad Ah (one pair, aces).
Hero has Kh Ks (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins $160.80. Hero wins $20.75. 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (9 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

MP2 ($123)
MP3 ($122.20)
Hero ($113.80)
Button ($19.50)
SB ($308.50)
BB ($87.45)
UTG ($96.40)
UTG+1 ($101.30)
MP1 ($49.75)

Preflop: Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG calls $1, 2 folds, MP2 raises to $4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $13, 3 folds, UTG folds, MP2 raises to $50, Hero raises to $113.8, MP2 calls $63.80.

Flop: ($230.10) A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img], 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: ($230.10) Q[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($230.10) 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $230.10

Results in white below: 
MP2 has As Ah (three of a kind, aces).
Hero has Kd Ks (one pair, kings).
Outcome: MP2 wins $230.10. 

PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (6 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

CO ($102.25)
Hero ($100.40)
SB ($107.55)
BB ($293.80)
UTG ($79.65)
MP ($99)

Preflop: Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $4, 2 folds, Hero raises to $11, 2 folds, UTG raises to $30, Hero raises to $100.4, UTG calls $49.65 (All-In).

Flop: ($160.80) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img], 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], 9[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Turn: ($160.80) 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

River: ($160.80) 6[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players, 1 all-in)

Final Pot: $160.80

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ad Ah (one pair, aces).
Hero has Kh Ks (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins $160.80. Hero wins $20.75. 

For what it's worth, I'm not saying I'm wanting to fold in situations like this due to the stack sizes... I'm talking strictly about 100bb+ stacks
PokerStars No-Limit Hold'em, $1.00 BB (8 handed) Hand History Converter Tool from FlopTurnRiver.com (Format: 2+2 Forums)

UTG ($48.85)
UTG+1 ($42)
MP1 ($314.90)
Hero ($160)
CO ($38.50)
Button ($146.50)
SB ($130.30)
BB ($100)

Preflop: Hero is MP2 with K[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img], K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img].
UTG raises to $4, UTG+1 calls $4, 1 fold, Hero raises to $14, 4 folds, UTG raises to $48.85, UTG+1 folds, Hero calls $34.85.

Flop: ($103.20) 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img], T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

Turn: ($103.20) Q[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] (2 players)

River: ($103.20) 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 players)

Final Pot: $103.20

Results in white below: 
UTG has Ad As (one pair, aces).
Hero has Kd Kh (one pair, kings).
Outcome: UTG wins $103.20.

Hklm8383 · #2 09-06-2007, 12:22 AM

ALL IN

GiantBuddha · #3 09-06-2007, 12:36 AM

It's amazing that you got the same board twice with KK vs. AA. But seriously, you give no reads. This is 100% read dependant. You should get KK vs. AA about once every 5300 hands or so. You'll be compensated by getting AA vs. KK a similar amount of the time. The other day I got all in preflop 3 times with KK vs. AA. The next day I got it all in with KK 3 times, but my opponents had AK, QQ, and 74o. Variance.

Cry Me A River · #4 09-06-2007, 12:37 AM

I'm locking this thread because it is completely useless without READS.

Yes, there are times you can fold KK preflop. I've done it twice lifetime. Both times with bulletproof reads. Otherwise ARRR-IN baby unless you're slowing it down to keep villain in the hand (trapping).

If villains are only ever pushing over you with AA you have bigger problems than folding KK. Either exercise some table selection or work on your preflop aggression, particularly opening up your 3-betting range in good spots.

ship_it_trebek · #5 09-06-2007, 12:38 AM

You need to underset more