2 hands - KK preflop.... What should I have done?

CrazyIvan24 · #1 03-09-2007, 02:22 PM

Here are two hands I played in 5-10 NL. I have only played a few orbits in each table, opponent has been semi-loose/aggr.

Please tell me if there is anyway of getting away from KK in the preflop (or flop)? And I'd like to see what others would think on how to play these two hands. A friend of mine (Steve) claims I could have folded both hands, I'd like to see what other 2+2 opinions are:

HAND 1
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is CO with K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]
UTG folds, UTG+1 raises to $35, Hero raises to $105, 3 folds, UTG+1 raises to $365, Hero raises all-in $924.5, UTG+1 calls.

Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($1864, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $1864)

Turn: 3[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1864, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $1864)

River: T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($1864, 1 player + 1 all-in - Main pot: $1864)

Results:
Final pot: $1864

Hand 2
Full Tilt Poker
No Limit Holdem Ring game
Blinds: $5/$10
7 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (7 players) Hero is Button with K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]
2 folds, MP1 calls, CO calls, Hero raises to $50, SB raises to $180, 3 folds, Hero raises to $525, SB raises all-in $1864.2, Hero calls all-in $416.5.
Uncalled bets: $922.7 returned to SB.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] ($-881.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $1913)

Turn: 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] ($-881.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $1913)

River: 3[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] ($-881.5, 0 player + 2 all-in - Main pot: $1913)

Results:
Final pot: $-881.5

dchz · #2 03-09-2007, 02:26 PM

i dont play at stakes this high, but i don't remember folding KK PF ever... if you got coolered so be it, there is BBV,

i thihnk you need a (really really reall reall)^12 good read to fold here

CrazyIvan24 · #3 03-09-2007, 02:32 PM

Well a friend of mine said I should be able to fold KK in both situations due to the re-raising/betting of my opponent, I disagreed with him. Just wanted to see what others thought. Thanks dchz for chiming in.

dchz · #4 03-09-2007, 02:34 PM

this is 1 buy in, do you have a read that the guy is a complete nit?
the only and you are scared of is AA, doens't AK & QQ do this a lot in an agrressive game? and there is way more combos of AK and QQ out there than AA?

CrazyIvan24 · #5 03-09-2007, 02:39 PM

This is typical 5-10 NL Full, but it was SH, since it was late at night, and players were sitting out and leaving.

Yes I've seen players make move with A7s, JJ, QQ, etc. I personally follow the Dan Harrington book in which its not wrong to NOT fold KK preflop, since you would need to be correct on your reads nearly 90% of the time.

The two hands, I only played maybe 20-25 mins at each table. My read was semi-loose, aggr player.

But I was just debating with my friend these hands. Even if I called my opponents raise preflop, I still think I would lose my stack on the flop????!??!?! (can't get away from it i think).

A1exxx · #6 03-09-2007, 02:40 PM

If you muck it, you are stupid...this is online madness, I see guys raise all in with junk on a bluff. But realistically they can easily have QQ, JJ, AK or even KK.

grafyx · #7 03-09-2007, 02:43 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Well a friend of mine said I should be able to fold KK in both situations due to the re-raising/betting of my opponent, I disagreed with him. Just wanted to see what others thought. Thanks dchz for chiming in.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're friend thinks you should fold KK preflop for 1 buyin in a 6max game? Thats crazy.

Folding hand 2 button vs sb would be ridiculous.

CrazyIvan24 · #8 03-09-2007, 02:50 PM

My friend Steve, emails me at his work with a response:

--------
Even before knowing what the poll results are, it will probably be 80%+ in
favour of not folding KK preflop. All ABC players will bet their stack.
Maybe that is why it is hard to win tournaments when only the top 10% make
the money, since there are more mediocre players than great players.

I don't see what your point is. The masses will agree with you and you
win your debate. I am just making the point that it is possible to make
big lay downs based on experience, observations, and betting patterns.
Once I raised in late position in an unopened pot with total junk J3o and
SB called. Flop is Ace high with rags and SB checks and I bet 75% of the
pot and he folds. He then said you had a big kicker, right? I felt so
guilty that I just replied "big kicker is all relative" ...

Just like in other sports, you have a superstar, two or three other great
players followed by average players providing the supporting cast in a team.
I believe poker is probably no different ... only a handful of really, great
players, followed by a bunch of experienced and seasoned pros, and then a
bunch of wannabe hotshots. The luck and suck out factor weighs in more
heavily in poker than in sports, however, creating more of an imbalance.

Steve
--------

I still will live and die with KKs!

grafyx · #9 03-09-2007, 02:59 PM

[ QUOTE ]
My friend Steve, emails me at his work with a response:

[/ QUOTE ]

Does your friend even play short handed MSNL?

A1exxx · #10 03-09-2007, 03:04 PM

im a wannabe hotshot