PBP: Renton Theorem zohmygod

[AllTheCheese]

I think Old School's criticisms on page 1 are spot-on. However, I think the whole central idea of Renton's thread (as I understand it) anyway, is great. For a solid poster I knew on another forum, this was like his mot. In NLH, the pot odds themselves are almost irrelevant during the early/middle stages of the hand. It's the IMPLIED odds on your plays that determine which plays are "good" and "bad"

Example: TAG button open-raises and you're in the BB with K8 offsuit. Considering the current EV, you should def. at least call, if not raise. So why is it conventional wisdom to muck this hand? It's because the hand plays so poorly on later streets. K8 off suit has a lot of reverse implied odds.

This hand is somewhat different than the ones Renton posted, but I think it's a similar idea.

[Mr_Donktastic]

Your post is a good reminder renton. Not exactly groundbreaking but you know that.

I think when multitabling its VERY easy to get into the habit of making one street decisions w/out fully thinking out the consequences of that action and how it will effect later streets. We all do it, and we all unnecessarily put ourselves in tough spots because of it.

[soah]

I agree with the theorem in its literal terms but your examples aren't really what I have in mind.

I will perhaps elaborate later but it would take a long time to fully explain and I don't have time now (I barely skimmed the thread even).

[Renton]

i chose to think of goofball examples to catalyze a dialog where hopefully people would bring up more applicable examples.

I think a more appropriate example of a preflop situation would be that whenever you are facing a raise from a very tight player and you have position, you should pretty much never 3bet, even with AA/KK because you can't profitably 3bet a wide enough range. So even though its technically a mistake to let someone see a free flop with an inferior hand to AA, the good spots we create postflop by slowplaying makes up for it.

[oldschool]

[ QUOTE ]
i chose to think of goofball examples to catalyze a dialog where hopefully people would bring up more applicable examples.

I think a more appropriate example of a preflop situation would be that whenever you are facing a raise from a very tight player and you have position, you should pretty much never 3bet, even with AA/KK because you can't profitably 3bet a wide enough range. So even though its technically a mistake to let someone see a free flop with an inferior hand to AA, the good spots we create postflop by slowplaying makes up for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also disagree here as well. you will have to incorporate some bluff element into your game on some street agianst any player, wether you choose to do it on the flop turn, or preflop is your porogative, but they are tight for a reason which means they wont defend their opens to some methodicaly light 3 betting.

[Renton]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i chose to think of goofball examples to catalyze a dialog where hopefully people would bring up more applicable examples.

I think a more appropriate example of a preflop situation would be that whenever you are facing a raise from a very tight player and you have position, you should pretty much never 3bet, even with AA/KK because you can't profitably 3bet a wide enough range. So even though its technically a mistake to let someone see a free flop with an inferior hand to AA, the good spots we create postflop by slowplaying makes up for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also disagree here as well. you will have to incorporate some bluff element into your game on some street agianst any player, wether you choose to do it on the flop turn, or preflop is your porogative, but they are tight for a reason which means they wont defend their opens to some methodicaly light 3 betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so since he's raising a range of QQ+ AK, we should be 3betting him light? i don't understand.

[mistere45]

[ QUOTE ]
i chose to think of goofball examples to catalyze a dialog where hopefully people would bring up more applicable examples.

I think a more appropriate example of a preflop situation would be that whenever you are facing a raise from a very tight player and you have position, you should pretty much never 3bet, even with AA/KK because you can't profitably 3bet a wide enough range. So even though its technically a mistake to let someone see a free flop with an inferior hand to AA, the good spots we create postflop by slowplaying makes up for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

Hmm. AM I the only one that thinks slowplaying a tight player is the exact opposite of what you want to do? What can you hope to gain from slowplaying a tight player, an extra Cbet on the flop possibly? Is that reward worth the risk of letting him see a flop? You most likely arent getting much more action from a tight player unless he has now out-flopped you, and is beating a single PP. The aggressive players are the ones you want to trap!!!

[RyanCMU]

Thanks for the taking the time to make this post Renton.

[oldschool]

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
i chose to think of goofball examples to catalyze a dialog where hopefully people would bring up more applicable examples.

I think a more appropriate example of a preflop situation would be that whenever you are facing a raise from a very tight player and you have position, you should pretty much never 3bet, even with AA/KK because you can't profitably 3bet a wide enough range. So even though its technically a mistake to let someone see a free flop with an inferior hand to AA, the good spots we create postflop by slowplaying makes up for it.

[/ QUOTE ]

I also disagree here as well. you will have to incorporate some bluff element into your game on some street agianst any player, wether you choose to do it on the flop turn, or preflop is your porogative, but they are tight for a reason which means they wont defend their opens to some methodicaly light 3 betting.

[/ QUOTE ]

ok, so since he's raising a range of QQ+ AK, we should be 3betting him light? i don't understand.

[/ QUOTE ]

o well you didnt specify besides really tight player. someone who opens that tight you shouldnt 3 bet anything because you can play perfectly against that tight a range if you know thats what it is. but im talking about a player that accually exists in real life and not fantasy land =).

edit. i forgot in full ring that there are like 3 of these players in existant and none in 6max, lets spend lots of time discussing how to exploit them =)