TPTK OOP. How much are you willing to put in.

[stinkpaw]

Against an unknown, how many BBs are you willing to put in on the following board if the action goes like:

1) You bet all the way and get called each street.

2) You check/call every street.

3) You bet flop and get min-raised, then c/c all the way.


Your hand: AKo
Your Position: UTG+1
Opponent's Position: LP
Full ring $400 NL, ~150 BB stacks.

Prelop: You raise 5BB ($20) and get 1 caller.

Flop: K, J, 6 rainbow

Turn: 2o

River: 9

[Albert Moulton]

In general, about 7-8 times the size of the preflop pot (about 70bb-80bb in the OP).

This is a pretty high amount, but without a read it is hard to know just how good TPTK is when you're OOP. A lower amount might be prudent (say 5 times the size of the preflop pot), but any less than 7-8 times probably gives up too much value vs a complete unknown who might be overplaying TPWK or trying to use his position to steal the pot.

1) 8bb continuation bet + 25bb turn bet + 40bb value bet = 73 bb post flop (about 7 times the size of the pre-flop pot).

2) 10bb c/c flop, 30bb c/c turn, and 60 bb c/c river = 100 bb post flop (about 10 times the size of the pre-flop pot). But this line stinks because you risk a lot of money without getting much information, especiallly if villain is loose aggressive enough to bet TPWK, draws, and low pairs for 3 big bullets if he suspects you are weak. Basically, if you underrepresent your hand with so much passive play, than you need to call a little more than you'd bet on those occasions when you might be up against a very aggressive opponent. A better "passive" line on the flop would be to c/c, then bet/fold the turn at a price you want to play. I.E. c/c the flop for 10bb, bet/fold 25bb on the turn, and either bet 20bb-40bb on the river, or c/c up to 40bb if you think villain might bluff a missed draw. These other lines end up with an upper end of 75bb or so (about 7-8 times the size of the preflop pot).

3) 16bb (8 cb + 8 min-raise) on the flop, 25bb on the turn (just over half pot), 40bb on the river = 81bb (about 8 times the size of the preflop pot). Facing a bigger turn bet would probably require a fold on the turn. And facing a bigger river bet would probably require a fold there too.

In general, I don't like calling the min-raise only to c/c on the turn and river because it is potentially pot-committing OOP without much to go on. Bet/fold, or crai, or just check/fold all seem better on the turn than c/c a big bet only to face an all-in (or vary large) bet on the river. I suppose c/c the turn and block at the river might be OK, but blocking bets don't often work well once so much of the stacks get committed (or if they are obviously blocking bets).

On a dry flop, occasionally taking a line like c/c on the flop, and bet/call or bet/fold on the turn might be better for pot-control than bet/call, check/?.

As a general statement, these kinds of hypotheticals aren't as useful as actual hands.

[Albert Moulton]

[ QUOTE ]
In general, about 7-8 times the size of the preflop pot (about 70bb-80bb in the OP).

[/ QUOTE ]

I'm also assuming that the game has a mix of a few good, several mediocre, and several bad (but not crazy) players who care about the absolute value of the money they're playing with (i.e. it's not .01/.02 NL, for example), like you might see in a 1/2 to 5/5 live game.

On-line at 200NL and above where there is a larger number of aggressive multi-tabling regulars, most of whom have statistical support software, then I'd need to rethink my post. I'd probably lower the amount I'd be willing to risk, and give up TPTK OOP a little sooner in some of the lines like the c/min-raise line. But I'm not sure.