Oh So Standard?

[IrishPete]

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It is for me because I bet most hands on the flop I raise preflop with, this might be different for you because you are more likely to check the flop with a lot of hands.

As I said, its a difference in style and betting this flop or checking it are neither wrong or right IMO...
In fact is pretty close together, I get more money from my monsters (TPTK/overpair/sets) while you probably win more with the weaker holdings.

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Yah i agree with this. I bet a lot of flops wen im the preflop aggressor especially when the pot is HU. It allows weak holding to fold and a level in consistency allows for payoffs for big hands. I really dont think the flop in question would stop me from betting here...and when i get a call i can slow down and re-evaluate the turn. Im probably calling a smaller bet in this hand on the river after the turn check.

[tannenj]

sir, you have confused me thoroughly.

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imo, "a combination of the two reasons" gains information.

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...? what i mean by "a combination of the two reasons" is that there are situations where there are better hands that might fold to a bet, and worse hands that might call. in other words, things aren't always concrete; it's not always "i'm betting this for value" or i'm betting because i want him to fold," sometimes the situation is sketchier and it's reasonable to factor both things into the equation. this is more of a msnl, hsnl mentality, i think, and comes into play more against thinking opponents.

in any case, i fail to see how any of this has to do with "gaining information."

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I really cant believe you're saying that there is never a reason to bet in order to gain information. Pretty ridiculous and very ABC-esque. well done.

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this has been overdone on this forum. i believe it is around 1:00 pm in the uk. for your sake, i hope dbitel (oops, it's "dan bitel" now) didn't wake up early today.

[tannenj]

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well, what better hands does the villain fold to a flop bet? JJ?

what worse hands can hero get more than one barrel of value from?

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I get called all the time by random pairs on the flop that check it down, yeah people spew against you if you 3-bet+c-bet light...

Also you'll never get more than one street of value out of this hand once the flop hits with the overcard (unless you hit a set), if I KNOW that villain is overly agressive I might call him down and check the flop but this is very rare and certainly not standard.

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exactly, hero's hand is not good enough to get two barrels of value. so why do most people bet the flop with this hand? is it because that's the street that villains are most likely to call with a worse hand on? maybe, that's the only reason i can think of that makes sense.

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if you want a street of value might as well make it the flop before more overcards come along? yes, its the street most likely for villain to call if he has over(s). besides, if you check behind here and another over comes on the turn and he checks to you again, you've just missed out on your one street of value

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these are fair points, and i understand both. for these reasons, i'd be more likely to check something like KK on an ace-high flop than TT on a queen-high flop.

however, i think inducing a bluff/a value bet with a worse hand from the villain on the turn and avoiding the river bet many villains love to make when the turn gets checked through outweigh the negatives to checking through the flop.

in addition, i find that i get looked up lighter when i bet the turn because it makes villains suspicious. i understand that this is a preference thing, though, and that others feel they get looked up light when they bet flops.

[Freelancer]

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It is for me because I bet most hands on the flop I raise preflop with, this might be different for you because you are more likely to check the flop with a lot of hands.

As I said, its a difference in style and betting this flop or checking it are neither wrong or right IMO...
In fact is pretty close together, I get more money from my monsters (TPTK/overpair/sets) while you probably win more with the weaker holdings.

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Yah i agree with this. I bet a lot of flops wen im the preflop aggressor especially when the pot is HU. It allows weak holding to fold and a level in consistency allows for payoffs for big hands. I really dont think the flop in question would stop me from betting here...and when i get a call i can slow down and re-evaluate the turn. Im probably calling a smaller bet in this hand on the river after the turn check.

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As long as your realize that betting this flop turns your hand into a bluff or bluffcatcher with a bit of value in it (you occasionally get called by worse pairs) your all good.



Something that hasn't been mentioned is that betting this flop prevents future mistakes and makes the hand super easy to play, not a huge thing but important nonentheless. If you can prevent your own mistakes there's money in it already, for instance if you make the mistake of calling two streets against TP or something you made a mistake that could've been prevented with betting the flop. Still only a small consideration and fairly similar to betting the flop for information.

[IrishPete]

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I think you mean that there's value in a bet on the flop and that a side benefit is that you gain information right?


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Ok i guess i didnt explain the value of the bet but i think its been covered by this. My point is that i think there is value in betting TT on this flop [as i think i pointed out in my last post] as it didnt connect with a lot of hands. as a side note, a call on the flop if u c-bet TT here helps with the line on later streets. thats the information part.

My point originally was that i dont mine betting TT on this flop [for value] but by checking im really not sure how u plan on playing the turn. are u calling if he bets the turn? assuming you do, what do u do on the river? if he checks the river do you value bet? if he bets are you calling?

I admit my post was a little confusing and definitely ommitted the value of my bet.

[josh_x]

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here are the reasons to make a bet:

1. to get a call from a worse hand

2. to make a better hand fold

it makes sense to bet for the first reason, for the second reason, and for some combination of the two reasons, but not "for information" (especially in a hand like this, where the villain can easily call with a hand that has us beat) or "because hero raised preflop." these just aren't legitimate, reasons to make a bet if you are looking at things in terms of expected value.

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A bet can also be good if, despite appearing to be -ev, it prevents you from making mistakes later in the hand that are even more -ev. So the bet itself becomes +ev.

Regarding betting for information, there's nothing inherently wrong with doing this, it's just that it often not the best move. When combined with other semi-[censored] reasons like protection, and add in some possible value, then you might have a good bet.

[Freelancer]

I am 99% sure that a bet on this flop is +ev because enough of his handrange will miss it (and folding) to make it +ev even if you bet with air, it gets even more profitable because you'll occasionally get called by worse hands.

The problem is identifying what is more +ev, checking or betting.


What is your line if your OOP? Are you also checking?

[tannenj]

no doubt that betting the flop is +EV.

i'd be more likely to check the flop in position than OOP.

[Freelancer]

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no doubt that betting the flop is +EV.

i'd be more likely to check the flop in position than OOP.

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Thats good, I think betting and checking are really close together in this situation. I prefer betting if thats case for image/information and ease of play (preventing mistakes is g00ttt), but checking is obviously fine as well.

Can we agree on that? [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[tannenj]

i don't feel that checking causes me to make mistakes. if you bet, there's a good chance you'll have a river decision, so it's possible to make a mistake there too.

i don't think checking is a bad play for image either, it can cause thinking villains to bluff you less, etc.

i think both plays are fine (though i do prefer checking); what's important is understanding the reasons to make the plays.