Overpair on the Turn vs TAG

[EricCardman32]

Villain is like 25/16/1.5 rather solid.
I clearly put him on a higher pocketpair and it's two more bets to see the showdown...then again the pot is rather large.
thoughts?

Party Poker
Limit Holdem Ring game
Limit: $5/$10
6 players
Converter

Pre-flop: (6 players) Hero is UTG+1 with T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero raises</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO 3-bets</font>, 3 folds, UTG calls, Hero calls.

Flop: 5[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] (10.4SB, 3 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, UTG calls, <font color="#cc0000">Hero 3-bets</font>, CO calls, UTG calls.

Turn: 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (9.7BB, 3 players)
UTG checks, <font color="#cc0000">Hero bets</font>, <font color="#cc0000">CO raises</font>, UTG folds, Hero folds.
Uncalled bets: 1BB returned to CO.

Results:
Final pot: 11.7BB


BTW
Is it ok to open a new thread for every hand or should I rather put 2-3 hands in one thread? Since I usually post on other message boards I'm not sure how you guys prefer it [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[scottfred]

I wouldnt 3 bet that flop, donking the flop is fine I think if you thought he would raise with overcards otherwise I wouldnt have donked either.

On to the turn, your situation now sucks the pot is so big, atleast it was a nice card, i'd probably bet fold it so I think that street is fine given the flop action and the guy your up against

[jstill]

what do u think hed raise the flop with. thats important to ur flop/turn play. solid stats could have me guess but since i dont really know this, my answer will kinda be a stab in the dark.

many tags wont raise AJ of spades here or AKo or 66-88, others will almost every time (guessing hes somwhere imbetween closer to never with his AF). BB in their makes me want to 3bet even moreso for sure. HU id just ck call down probably, unless he 3bet light and raised the flop light often cking the turn or river behind.

[Nick C]

Most likely you were beat. Villain is passive postflop for a TAG, and I doubt he was playing this way with 88 or AsKs. When he pops you again on the turn, it looks like he likes his hand a lot.

One thing that makes me have nagging doubts is the thought that he might have been trying again to drive UTG out and get this HU. Another is the thought that he might have convinced himself you were pumping a flush draw on the flop. But I doubt either of those things is what was going on.

Anyway, this is one of those hands where you're in an awkward and difficult situation on the flop. You'd like to protect your hand, but the problem is that if the passive TAG actually raises you on the flop, the chances that you're actually best just went way down. So if I led the flop, once CO raised and UTG cold-called, I would give up on protecting my hand or going for value and just start calling down.

I would probably check the flop instead, though. I'd imagine that CO will generally bet this flop 3-handed. If UTG folds, I would probably just call, and then, against this CO, I would consider leading a non-ace or non-king turn, planning to call down if raised. On an ace or king, I would probably check again. (Versus someone I could count on to bet again on any turn, I would probably check-call.)

If UTG called CO's flop bet, I would probably checkraise for value.

[Roland32]

In limit hold'em if you fold an overpair and the board hasnt completed a draw and there are 3 or less players in the pot, there usually was a mistake made. I like the flop, but the turn I dont see the point of the bet. I would just call down. If you are betting to protect your hand and save a bet at the same time, remember you are giving up your showdown to do so, and in a large pot at that. By folding you are only saving one bet as opposed to check calling. I honestly think up to flop is fine but turn river should be check call.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
In limit hold'em if you fold an overpair and the board hasnt completed a draw and there are 3 or less players in the pot, there usually was a mistake made.

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?!?!?

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I like the flop, but the turn I dont see the point of the bet.

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We can question Hero's flop three-bet although I think it is fine. But it is debatable. However, I don't see how if you like the flop three-bet you can possibly think it is OK to check the turn 3-handed with a pocket pair that is very vulnerable to overcards.

[Apanage]

Good fold.I don´t think the flop 3-bet is good though. I would donk a blank turn instead and fold to a raise.
He has to be really brave or dumb to raise a turndonk from you with a worse hand than TT when UTG cold calls two both preflop and on flop.

[Roland32]

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In limit hold'em if you fold an overpair and the board hasnt completed a draw and there are 3 or less players in the pot, there usually was a mistake made.

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?!?!?

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I like the flop, but the turn I dont see the point of the bet.

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We can question Hero's flop three-bet although I think it is fine. But it is debatable. However, I don't see how if you like the flop three-bet you can possibly think it is OK to check the turn 3-handed with a pocket pair that is very vulnerable to overcards.

[/ QUOTE ]

Well its kind of a backword line of when the pot gets big try to win it right away. Except when the pot gets big and you can confidantly expect no one will fold and your hand is either slightly ahead or way behind get to showdown as cheap as possible.

It is highly unlikely either villains will fold at this point but because of the pot size and position of the villain in position he has great incentive to jam with weaker hands then yours. There is one card to come with an overpair that you will only charge others to see and not fold. The pot is large enough to see a river but additional bets are not +ev in isolation so minimize additional monies and get to showdown.

I guess another way of putting it is you are actually charging yourself with additional bets. Especially if most outs will hurt you and you might already be behind its kinda like drawing to an ignorant straight or weak flush. Check and call turn because the pot is huge and check and call the river if you hit that weak draw.

[colgin]

[ QUOTE ]
when the pot gets big and you can confidantly expect no one will fold and your hand is either slightly ahead or way behind get to showdown as cheap as possible.


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Three-way here in a big pot, as you say, your primary goal should not be seeing a cheap showdown. It should be betting for value/protecting your hand. You cannot risk giving a free card here even if you risk getting raised when you bet.

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It is highly unlikely either villains will fold at this point

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You don't know that. CO is less likely to fold granted. But SB could have peeled with lord knows what (perhaps as little as a backdoor draw). He may have as little as one overcard and will fold to your bet. But don't give him a free card here. And if he makes an improper call those times he is drawing thin and not getting proper odds so be it. That is fine.

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but because of the pot size and position of the villain in position he has great incentive to jam with weaker hands then yours

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This is very villain dependent. Against many villains, when the turn blanks off like this you are not getting raised by a worse hand and can safely fold. But sometimes you will need to suck it up and call down (and many of those times you will be beat, but that's poker). Still, that's no excuse for not betting the turn with an vulnerable overpair after three-betting the flop and seizing intiative in the hand.

[Roland32]

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[ QUOTE ]
when the pot gets big and you can confidantly expect no one will fold and your hand is either slightly ahead or way behind get to showdown as cheap as possible.


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Three-way here in a big pot, as you say, your primary goal should not be seeing a cheap showdown. It should be betting for value/protecting your hand. You cannot risk giving a free card here even if you risk getting raised when you bet.

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It is highly unlikely either villains will fold at this point

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You don't know that. CO is less likely to fold granted. But SB could have peeled with lord knows what (perhaps as little as a backdoor draw). He may have as little as one overcard and will fold to your bet. But don't give him a free card here. And if he makes an improper call those times he is drawing thin and not getting proper odds so be it. That is fine.

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but because of the pot size and position of the villain in position he has great incentive to jam with weaker hands then yours

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This is very villain dependent. Against many villains, when the turn blanks off like this you are not getting raised by a worse hand and can safely fold. But sometimes you will need to suck it up and call down (and many of those times you will be beat, but that's poker). Still, that's no excuse for not betting the turn with an vulnerable overpair after three-betting the flop and seizing intiative in the hand.

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I guess this noils down to two questions:

Do you think we are ahead on the turn more than 50% of the time?

What range do you think villain cold called 2 bets cold and a reraise?