Stars 60: 2nd hand, go broke here?

[eurythmech]

How the [censored] are you Sober?

[tercet]

Yes

[hoyasnaxa]

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Obviously you have to call the river. What card were you hoping to see on the river when you called the turnbet?

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The 6 of diamonds. Call, you lose though probably.

[TimWakefield]

Sober I have to disagree with you that reraising the river is smart here. I don't know how often we are ahead there or how often we are losing, but I do know that we're certainly ahead often enough that we're calling every time. However, many many times I've come back from 200 or less chips and cashed - I think the risk here FAR outweighs the reward of reraising the river. If we just call and win then we have almost a double stack at the first level - if we reraise and win we have a bit more than a double stack. If we just call and lose we have over 10 bbs left. If we reraise and lose we're dead.

Regarding the earlier streets - preflop is fine. The flop I think is a very tricky spot. Without the ace out there I'd be very very inclined to go broke with a flush draw + gutshot, but you're probably not getting an ace to fold here so I think it's a very tough decision regarding whether to call the big raise or not. I think in this situation you should fold - yes we have a big draw but our flush is obvious if it hits and may not get paid, and we will usually have to call another larger bet on the turn if we want to see 5 cards (we got lucky that villain bet the turn so weakly and let us get there).

[palman]

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The line the guy took really screams of a monster, he gassed the flop, donk bet the turn, and min raised the river.

There's no reason to throw your last 250 some chips in, the difference between 2750 chips and 3k is nothing, whereas 250 to 0 is fairly significant.

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He didn't donkbet the turn. He was the last aggressor on the previous round of betting, so this is a standard continuation-type bet.

And flat-calling all but 250 of your chips on any street is dumb in all but the weirdest bubble situations. At this point, we shouldn't be worried about 'saving our tournament' with 250 chips if we lose, but rather maximizing our value with what is likely the best hand.

Also, the math in your example is bad. If your last 250 chips go in and he calls, the difference in your chip total when you win is not 250 as in your 2750-3000 example, it's 500. Your 250 plus his 250.

An extra 500 chips does matter, and that ev edge matters more than the prospective ev of having 250 chips left if you lose. I would think this stuff is pretty obvious.

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I think everything in this post is wrong.

He bet 120 into 590. In what world is this not considered a donk bet?

If you shove and win, you only have 250 more chips than if you called and win, not 500. You have your 250 chips no matter what you do. Once he min raises the river, we're not confident we have the best hand, that's why we are calling.

chips have more value the less you have, this is basic tournament poker strategy.

Edited to say: If we're calling a shove here, Why not just shove the river ourselves. Are we really worried about getting an A to fold here? btw, I'm in the check-call river camp unless he's got a real low ROI, in which case I'm shoving.

[JoeSchmo]

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Also, the math in your example is bad. If your last 250 chips go in and he calls, the difference in your chip total when you win is not 250 as in your 2750-3000 example, it's 500. Your 250 plus his 250.

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QFA (A = awesomeness)

[beserious]

Yeah agreed, I would say my biggest mistake this hand was 3-betting the river instead of calling.

[Scotty_12]

His flop raise / turn donkbet line can easily be 2 pair/set that filled up which is why I like check/call the river instead of bet/raise or bet/call. I would be shocked if button doesnt bet this river, and you lose less to the full houses when you take this line

[Kevin8423]

If you see this flop then the first call is very standard, though once it is reraised I think you either need to fold or shove.

If you aren't instashoving when you hit either draw then you should never continue on this flop. There is no reason whatsoever that you should call a large portion of your stack to hit a draw that won't hit a majority of the time and that you aren't shoving with because you may have been drawing to 1 out the entire time.

[Sober]

[img]/images/graemlins/blush.gif[/img]

Sorry, posted that during my lunchbreak, and was in a hurry. Read the location, eh?

Good posts, guys. But I still think that leaving yourself 250 chips is -hourly rate. Go ahead and double up, or bust and open another table instead of treading water at t200 for another ten minutes.