Limping UTG!!!

[Pokey]

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Let us look at a stylized example ... you play heads up and you hold the SB first too act (and we ignore BB play now)

Let's assume that the BB defends with 30% of his hands and there is no rake. Let us also assume that BB does not adjust but is stuck at the 30% for all eternity.


How wide should you open in the SB ?

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Any two cards, of course, making a minraise every time. After all, you're making an even-odds bet (1.5 BBs to win 1.5 BBs) and you'll win it 70% of the time immediately, not to mention the wins that come later on.

I'm missing something, though -- how does this apply to opening QTs UTG at a six-max table? If you're trying to say that there are conditions in which any behavior can be profit-maximizing at a particular poker table, I completely agree with you (hence my "it depends" comment). However, I think that without any reads and without any additional information, your default play with a hand like QTs should probably be to fold preflop UTG.

Of course, I've never been entirely comfortable with easily dominated hands or with suited one-gappers. For example, I'd gladly raise 76s UTG at the same six-handed table. We all open our games up in different ways, but these weak broadway hands just give me fits postflop -- they hit no more often than 75s, but when they hit we're always looking over our shoulder for the dominating hand that's coming along to clobber us.

[Jamougha]

The hand is not good enough to be worth limping, but it's good enough to raise and not so good enough that you can't fold.

[Gelford]

Oh .. you saw the post ... well even if you make a potsized raise in that example, then raising 100% will be profitable and you don't have to worry about playing postflop or cbetting.

And the same applies at a nitty 200NL table with your not uncommon gathering of say 18/14 'nits' or tighter.

At a table nitty as this planning around commitment goes out the window, since it is sooo hard to get paid off, but due to the 'nits' lack of willingness to enter pots, you can just chip up nice an easy by basically taping over your cards and just raising a lot and cbetting according to board texture

That is the other end of the scale the point is that you go from planning around commitment to planning around stealing, the force of QTs is not hitting TPBK but hitting strong draws, that have a lot of equity enabling you to play for stacks on equity alone.


So to sum up
1. Despite whatever Sklansky claims in NLTAP, planing around stealing is a valid and even sometimes necessary approach.

2. SCs, SC1s and Axs shine in such a context as they have high equity once they hit something thus acting as a safety net and these cards alone open your game a good deal (even tho table conditions actually might be such that you can so to say tape over your hole cards)

3. And off course, opening up adds value to your pf monster's


Etc.



Table condition can sometimes be such, that you don't really have to be armed with more than a nice loose aggressive pf game to show a profit, postflop fading in the background (I know, postflop is the most importants skill, it is just that there are times, where you don't need them)

[Gelford]

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The hand is not good enough to be worth limping, but it's good enough to raise and not so good enough that you can't fold.

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If you incorporate ep limping in your game (krantz style, dunno if he does it in practice but he posted about it a while back, then adding QTs for balance it what makes you want to limp it)

[KIZDuck]

i did't think anybody here raises this kind of hands utg before i read the thread.
6max i raise it from CO or maybe UTG+1 if the table is thight.

but im a nit and im working on a more laggy style.
i dont think raising hands like this utg is a good lag style and i never openlimp utg!

[Jamougha]

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The hand is not good enough to be worth limping, but it's good enough to raise and not so good enough that you can't fold.

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If you incorporate ep limping in your game (krantz style, dunno if he does it in practice but he posted about it a while back, then adding QTs for balance it what makes you want to limp it)

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I just haven't seen any good evidence that open-limping in early position is good strategy. I know of only 3 players who succeeded in using it at significant stakes (3/6+). All were pre-UIGEA. Since then one has changed his game to meow-chow TAG, one has bustoed from 10/20 to 100NL and idk about the other.

[Jamougha]

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i dont think raising hands like this utg is a good lag style

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It's fine and many good players do it.

[Gelford]

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The hand is not good enough to be worth limping, but it's good enough to raise and not so good enough that you can't fold.

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If you incorporate ep limping in your game (krantz style, dunno if he does it in practice but he posted about it a while back, then adding QTs for balance it what makes you want to limp it)

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I just haven't seen any good evidence that open-limping in early position is good strategy. I know of only 3 players who succeeded in using it at significant stakes (3/6+). All were pre-UIGEA. Since then one has changed his game to meow-chow TAG, one has bustoed from 10/20 to 100NL and idk about the other.

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I would never do it as default, but in games with a 'I must punish the weak limpers' 2+2 bot in lp ensuring that he will raise with a wide range suddenly a lot of hands that feel bad against a call after raising initially due to the more narrow calling ranges like AJ find life


You can min reraise to get a nice target spr or just call and play poker


Still it is oop and all, but you can do it I believe (still on the experimenting stage tho)

[Motorcycle Mike]

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Has this forum already forgotten the brilliant post "Dear uNL, you're not good enough"???

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Anyone have the link to this?

[corsakh]

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The hand is not good enough to be worth limping, but it's good enough to raise and not so good enough that you can't fold.

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If you incorporate ep limping in your game (krantz style, dunno if he does it in practice but he posted about it a while back, then adding QTs for balance it what makes you want to limp it)

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I just haven't seen any good evidence that open-limping in early position is good strategy. I know of only 3 players who succeeded in using it at significant stakes (3/6+). All were pre-UIGEA. Since then one has changed his game to meow-chow TAG, one has bustoed from 10/20 to 100NL and idk about the other.

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Aba and Ivey all limp utg a ton. Then they limp/reraise a ton too.