Limping UTG!!!

[corsakh]

Quite the controrary Trigs [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

The only reason to consider limping UTG is for implementing limp reraise strategy on very aggro tables. If everyone is just a calling station, no way I think I am good enough to outplay 3-4 other people postflop in an unraised pot with this hand from this position. The times your gonna be dominated / playing RIO - just terrible [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img] I may limp it in LP for the reasons your decribed though if I think that my raise is not going to cut the field to HU. But then I am more likely to raise more preflop than to overlimp.

And yes, I almost always fold this UTG. The only case i may raise it is when there is a huge, I mean huuuuuuge, fish sitting in the blinds and the players behind me are somewhat tight.

[Triggerle]

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If everyone is just a calling station, no way I think I am good enough to outplay 3-4 other people postflop in an unraised pot with this hand from this position.

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You don't need to outplay people who stack off with middle pair in unraised pots. You flop 2pair or better often enough for the 1bb investment to be worth it.

!!This is for the special case situation I described above. I fold this all the time at normal tables!!

[corsakh]

Ye but then you end up playing it for face value pretty often. And two pairs never freaking hold in limped pots. And the Q high flush is never good. Soo much trouble [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[TheRenaissance]

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There is only one correct answer to this question:
It depends.

Most of the advice in this thread so far seem to be based on pretty simple rule-of-thumb thinking, ie 'I has hand x in position y so I must always do z'. The truth is that all options are open to you - fold, raise, limp. It depends. To the people that say always raise/fold, try thinking of a situation where limping in utg actually might be a good option.

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Just want to note that I virtually never play this hand utg 6-handed, and if I did I would usually raise. However, I do believe situations occasionally pop up where it might be a good idea to limp. Say a table full of loose passive callstations, both pre and post, with deepish stacks, a limp might be good to see if you can flop a strong hand. With a table like that you shouldnt have much trouble building a pot postflop when you hit big - even if it starts out small.

[jtr]

I'd limp with it UTG if the other players all had low PF raise numbers, and tended to min-raise when they did raise. A call despite being OOP would make sense then, unless they were all short-stacked.

[Pokey]

I was tempted to make a flippant response to this thread, but there are some interesting and deep poker questions that revolve around this issue. Ultimately, I think:

1. The people who say "raise or fold" are close.
2. The people who say "just fold it" are closer.
3. The people who say "it depends" have got it.

Our hand is weak and our position is awful. As poker players, we should realize that position is king in no-limit, and that without it we're going to have a very hard time making money. Sure, every once in awhile we'll flop KJx or J9x and have a nicely disguised straight draw, but even there we're only going to complete our draw occasionally, and the payoff won't be particularly great if we're in a limped pot. We'll have a hard time bluffing at a pot OOP, we'll have a hard time extracting value on a Q-high or T-high board, and we won't be able to bet hard without at LEAST two pair. Much is lined up against this hand, and my default play is definitely going to be to fold this from EP.

This is the kind of hand where I need a pretty good reason NOT to fold. Examples might be:

1. The people on my left are overly tight and the people in the blinds are overly loose. If I've made extremely good table selection, this isn't an unlikely scenario. As such, a raise could easily buy me the button and give me a good shot at a nice win, either with a successful continuation bet or with a sneaky TPNK-type hand. Here, raising would be the most +EV move in my arsenal.

2. My table image is overly tight -- I've folded every hand for the past few orbits, and I think my folding equity is exquisitely high. Here, I could (VERY OCCASIONALLY) make a "blind steal" from UTG, knowing that I'll have a good chance at picking up the blinds. Even better, there's a chance that I get into a fight and show down a winner with my QTs(!), "proving" to the table that I'm a maniac and getting me tons of action when I actually have a hand worth raising preflop. This is a pure image play that you can make with ATC, but only when conditions are perfect, and even then it needs to be done extremely sparingly.

As to smooth-calling, there are a few reasons for that one, too:


1. The table doesn't fold or raise. I'll get a multi-way pot for 1 BB, and if I hit well I'll extract a fortune from one or more imbeciles. Here, limping is the right play.

2. There are some TPPs sitting on my left who get married to hands postflop entirely too easily. They don't often play a hand, but once they do they just can't find a fold. For these folks, the trick is to entice them into ponying up that first BB to get the game started; after that, they become donators just like the more traditional calling stations. Also, since they are passive preflop you don't have to worry abou them dropping a raise on you and forcing you off your cruddy hand. Don't think these guys don't exist -- those 9/1 rocks get BORED playing their set-mining game, and when they actually see a flop, they don't want the fun and excitement to end -- they'll call down with their 99, knowing that T7432 couldn't possibly have hit an UTG's calling range....

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In general, fold this. If you want to get cutesy with limping, do it by completing the SB more often: it's much cheaper and there are far fewer opportunities for someone to raise behind you. All the reasons to complete from UTG are MUCH stronger when you're in the SB.

[Gelford]

Pokey, My and many others default is to raise it pf, I need a reason to fold it.

One such reason could be:

I am playing 10NL and I do not have much in terms of postflop skill and people tend to be calling stations, so I prefer to just be a mindless nit and just build my roll the easy way untill I hit levels, where I might get forced to open my game in order to survive. (Which is perfectly valid imo)

[Pokey]

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Pokey, My and many others default is to raise it pf, I need a reason to fold it.


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I've been called a nit before, and I never shy away from the title. I'm comfortable with it. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

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One such reason could be:

I am playing 10NL and I do not have much in terms of postflop skill and people tend to be calling stations, so I prefer to just be a mindless nit and just build my roll the easy way untill I hit levels, where I might get forced to open my game in order to survive. (Which is perfectly valid imo)


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First off, that's an incredibly good reason to fold at uNL.

Secondly, that reason doesn't stop applying at higher stakes tables. "Opening up your game" is important, but if you look at the really good players they open up their game IN LATE POSITION. Playing very loose from the button is doable for a good hand reader and under the right table conditions. Playing very loose from UTG is probably spewing even for a really good hand reader, and it's DEFINITELY spewing for me. If the 10NL tables are sooooo much worse than the 100NL tables, then it might be possible that playing QTs from UTG is +EV, but I would find that surprising.

All told, I agree that "as you move up" you should be planning to "open up your game." However, I'd much rather open up by raising/playing 10% more hands from the button than 10% (or even 5%) more hands from UTG. Remember: money on the poker table flows clockwise, and if the people in the hand are sitting at your left they're more likely to get your money than the other way around, barring a VERY severe skill differential.

[Gelford]

nm ...

[TheRenaissance]

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3. The people who say "it depends" have got it.

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I win the prize!
[img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]