Razz: Defending against steal

[PARASOFT]

Hi,
yesterday I was playing a MTT razz tourney and the players on my right were very aggressive at 3rd street, if there were 3 or less low cards left, one of them would almost always complete. I almost never had a chance to steal the antes. I tried to reraise them when I get any 3 card 8, but i was card dead, so they got away with it most of the time, and I think this made them steal even more. And to make the matters worse, the player on my left was extremely tight and passive, he never reraised the stealers.

Do you have any suggestions against stealers? Do you think it is ok to flat call them with any 2 crad wheel? Do you think this will cause them to steal less?

Thanks for reading.

[Praxising]

We must have been playing the same tournament. This is the new look in Razz from the NLHE refugees: Sammy Farha Razz. And they are starting to hit the cashgames. ATsmallC - see if they win. Any four cards under ten, they will not fold. Any four cards under 8, they jam the pot every street if they can.Same with any three wheels - all the way to the river. They don't care if they lose and they are winning a disturbing number of times.

IF you get a good seat with cards that hold up, you can wait them out, because 90% bust out in the first 90 minutes. Later in the trny they settle down a little.

It's power turbo Razz. "Turbo" Razz..an oxymoron.

I'm at a complete loss when there are more then two of them at a table.



Play the $10 or higher.

[natanayro]

I agree with Praxising. I find that in the MTT tourneys I just wait for a good starters and let the maniacs fight it out. In the later stages of the tourney or final table it gets a little rough if you go card dead BUT forcing the issue doesn't seem to help and ends up getting you in trouble. I have found success with a tight strategy.

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
We must have been playing the same tournament. This is the new look in Razz from the NLHE refugees: Sammy Farha Razz. And they are starting to hit the cashgames. ATsmallC - see if they win. Any four cards under ten, they will not fold. Any four cards under 8, they jam the pot every street if they can.Same with any three wheels - all the way to the river. They don't care if they lose and they are winning a disturbing number of times.

IF you get a good seat with cards that hold up, you can wait them out, because 90% bust out in the first 90 minutes. Later in the trny they settle down a little.

It's power turbo Razz. "Turbo" Razz..an oxymoron.

I'm at a complete loss when there are more then two of them at a table.



Play the $10 or higher.

[/ QUOTE ]

Do you know the saying "whatever doesn't kill you makes you stronger"? Well these maniacs operate off the same theory. For example if you were in a STT with 3 maniacs like this and they were jamming every pot and you were waiting for premium hands to get involved with, what would the table look like after a couple of the maniacs flamed out? If you were catching good starting hands you'd probably have won a decent share, but if not then with a starting stack of N chips, we'd see (with the maniacs denoted by "M"):

M #1: busto
M #2: busto
M #3: 3N
PRAX: N
TAG1: N
TAG2: N
TAG3: N
TAG4: N

I think it's pretty apparent how this is not to your advantage, especially once the limits go up and your starting stack keeps getting shorter and shorter, giving you less chance to obsorb the inevitable swings.

[RustyBrooks]

If you can isolate against a maniac, do it, and call down light. By no means should you re-raise him with minor edges post-3rd but if you've got a lock on him go nuts. With a minor edge or deficit, let him bet at you. You can take down big pots against these guys with pretty crap hands.

If the table has it figured out and are not going to fold to isolation raises, or are going to re-raise, etc, then I'll call along with some more speculative hands like great nines, but if I can isolate, I'm going to play a lot more 2-card wheels with 9s and Ts, any 3 card 8, etc.

I'm at a table now where initially there were 3 maniacs, one more maniac than the other two combined. He went broke before level 2 and I got a lot of it. One big hand I had A69. I could not get it heads up, and I knew that, so I just called along with the 2 maniacs capping (one of them showing a K, one of them showing an 8 - I don't think I'd come along if they both showed cards under my door). I played passively until 5th, when it was very likely I had the best hand (a 96) and the best draw (a pretty decent 6). I got bet into on the river, called with a rivered 86, and beat LAG #1 who had had a worse 9 than I had on 5th.

One thing that is very important with maniacs is to avoid inflating the pot early. You never have enough of an edge on 3rd that you want a maniac to call you to the river 100% of the time, so don't make it nearly correct for them to do so. By 5th you often have enough of an edge to start jamming. In multi-way pots you can start jamming 4th a lot of the time because although your edge might be lower than heads up, you are getting twice the action on your bets.

Pick your spots, though. Open your range but not so much that your brain falls out. Maniacs will be in nearly every pot, so it's easier to manipulate them than solid players.

[RustyBrooks]

I should point out that in cash games, as well as tournaments, TAG players often stumble against LAGs by trying to out-aggress them. I think it's often correct to give up a little EV that you could gain by raising a LAG and instead call him. In the long run this keeps him betting at you longer with crap. Many LAGs are not stupid and will shut down if you play back at them with their worst hands, and keep going with their best hands. If you check-call check-call along, they will keep betting with both their good and their bad hands. It's often a good idea to raise the river with any reasonable hand. And don't forget that LAGs get good hands also.

[betgo]

It depends on the situation, but aggression, particularly aggression on 3rd street is usually NOT very effective in razz. This is a game with too much information. You can't play it like holdem where no ones cards are face up.

[PARASOFT]

The players I mentioned were not maniacs. They were just stealing way too often.

And not reraising someone who completed in steal position(espeically in cash games) with a 3-card 8 is a big sin in Razz. If you don't do so, it is correct for such player to complete with any 2 card hand.

[RustyBrooks]

who said not to re-raise with a 3 card 8 against someone in steal position. I assume betgo's comment is in regards to getting aggressive with a 2 card wheel draw.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]
The players I mentioned were not maniacs. They were just stealing way too often.

And not reraising someone who completed in steal position(espeically in cash games) with a 3-card 8 is a big sin in Razz. If you don't do so, it is correct for such player to complete with any 2 card hand.

[/ QUOTE ] Your description of their 3rd st play fits the "maniac" profile. However, I was the one who made that comparison, and as you weren't responding yourself, I believe a lot of the comments were informed by the response to the OP.

I don't think you necessarily always raise someone who completes in "steal position" with a three card 8. There are boards, opponents, situations and certain three card eights I when would call or might just fold.

prax-

Oh, Poker Goddess, be merciful to me, a sinner....