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#31
12-28-2006, 09:22 AM
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Re: TAG v. LAG style of play in MSSH (Cross-Post from SSSH Forum)
[ QUOTE ]
talk about it all you want. why dont you play 10k hands 40/30? [/ QUOTE ] And what would you say after I did? Depending on the result I'm betting on "I told you so" or "sample size". Pursuit of statistical goals is foolish. Poker is still a game of individual hands and decisions. I'm not going to randomly add a whole bunch of hands at once and hope it works out. They have to be the right hands and right now I don't have 40% worth of ideas that I want to be associated with. But I do have 30% worth of ideas and in retrospect that seems incredible. Not so long ago 30/20 seemed impossible to me. I got there not through crude measures but by carefully analyzing many aspects of preflop play and gradually adding new hands and new raises. I've also deleted a few too because even tight players do some things they shouldn't. That's what I'm going to continue to do. Researching, analyzing, and trying new things in a controlled way while trying to make some money at the same time. If that leads to 35% or 40% someday then so be it. My statistical research using PT and my essays in these threads serve two purposes for me: 1. Game selection: A year ago I had fundamentally wrong ideas about who the fish are. This is one of the most deadly strategic failings a poker player can have and it got me in some trouble. I now have a much better understanding of where I should be sitting. 2. Areas to explore: Most of the LAGs are pretty haphazard about which preflop ideas they embrace. Bad hands are included while some good ideas get left out. Understanding why they are successful is much better than simply copying them. I want to find and add the good ideas without picking up a bunch of new leaks. This thread has helped me figure out what changes to investigate next. 
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#32
12-28-2006, 11:34 AM
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Re: TAG v. LAG style of play in MSSH (Cross-Post from SSSH Forum)
The discussion seems to be centered about LAG preflop play but I think a big consideration needs to be given to the LAG postflop play. The difference between LAGS and TAGS is not confined only to the preflop realm.
Here are some plays that LAGS (at least where I am playing) are characterized with when it it comes to post flop play (mainly HU): -LAG raises preflop bets the flop and is called. Most LAGS will bet the turn about 95% of the time. - LAG raises preflop,bets flop and is raised. Most LAGS will peel the flop no matter what they have. If the LAG is in position and is CR on a low board he will always 3-bet with overcards, bet the turn and check behind river when he has A high. - LAG raises preflop and is 3-betted. A LAG will peel the flop about 95% of the time. - AK goes to SD 100% of the time when it is HU. AT-AQ go to SD 90% - A pair is never folded - No matter the action preflop or on the flop, when the LAG picks up an 8+ outs or more draw he raises. - if the preflop aggressor checks behind the turn a LAG oop will always bet the river. These plays describe more accurately the 35/22 +LAGs. The lower the VP$IP, a lesser amount of the above plays is used. I believe that the plays above are much more useful against tags than against fish since tags are folders and fish are looking for every opportunity to get to SD. In the last couple of years the number of fish in comparison to TAGS has lowered considerably and this could be the reason that LAGS are showing better winrates in databases.
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#35
12-28-2006, 12:33 PM
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Re: TAG v. LAG style of play in MSSH (Cross-Post from SSSH Forum)
Andy Prock:
[ QUOTE ] The tight and aggressive style is designed to exploit preflop looseness, and postflop weakness. What if you want to exploit players who are far too loose postflop? To do this, you’ll need to get to the postflop rounds to effectivly exploit them. In that case, you may want to defer your tight-aggressive style until the flop has come. [/ QUOTE ]
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#36
12-28-2006, 12:51 PM
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Re: TAG v. LAG style of play in MSSH (Cross-Post from SSSH Forum)
If that's true combined with the assumption that LAGs make their money from fish and not from the Tags, why is this a problem only in the mid+ limits? I thought there were more "far too lose players" in the low limits. Just wondering...
If a Tag style is successful at the low limits and not at 20/40+, I can't see why this is because of the fishes in those games. Maybe I'm missing something, but I think a good 25/17 would beat the superfish I've observed at some 20/40 tables.
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#37
12-28-2006, 01:22 PM
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Re: TAG v. LAG style of play in MSSH (Cross-Post from SSSH Forum)
[ QUOTE ]
I don't know why you guys waste so much time dissecting stats like this. [/ QUOTE ] I was looking at the stats only as a theoretical point of interest. No other reason -- I don't expect it to help me play poker.
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#38
12-28-2006, 05:31 PM
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Re: TAG v. LAG style of play in MSSH (Cross-Post from SSSH Forum)
theres plenty of TAGS playing in one of the stoxtrader databases, stoxtrader himself is a 6 player TAG.
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#39
12-28-2006, 06:56 PM
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Re: TAG v. LAG style of play in MSSH (Cross-Post from SSSH Forum)
[ QUOTE ]
theres plenty of TAGS playing in one of the stoxtrader databases, stoxtrader himself is a 6 player TAG. [/ QUOTE ] How old is this DB? I suspect Stox's TAG style is not good enough after how the games have changed. Of course this is just a personal opinion and might be far off.
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#40
12-28-2006, 07:01 PM
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Re: TAG v. LAG style of play in MSSH (Cross-Post from SSSH Forum)
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] theres plenty of TAGS playing in one of the stoxtrader databases, stoxtrader himself is a 6 player TAG. [/ QUOTE ] How old is this DB? I suspect Stox's TAG style is not good enough after how the games have changed. Of course this is just a personal opinion and might be far off. [/ QUOTE ] its not really comparable. stox was playing 150p/300p. i highyl doubt todays 10/20 plays tougher than that game.
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