family issue, and personal philosophy

[New001]

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FYI, the canonical final goal of Buddhism is the eradication ("pulling out by the root", and therefore no possibility of growth back) of greed, hate and ignorance within one's psychology.

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AFAIK, that is correct yet incomplete, the idea is to get rid of all mundane interests, both good and bad. So that'd include love, joy and even mercy (though most of buddhism has a contradiction here, since it suggests you do good for others)

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I disagree with that, do you have a source?

[MidGe]

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FYI, the canonical final goal of Buddhism is the eradication ("pulling out by the root", and therefore no possibility of growth back) of greed, hate and ignorance within one's psychology.

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AFAIK, that is correct yet incomplete, the idea is to get rid of all mundane interests, both good and bad. So that'd include love, joy and even mercy (though most of buddhism has a contradiction here, since it suggests you do good for others)

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It is complete. You are adding things to it. There may be a small sect or some new-age group that may have added to it in this way, nevertheless, the canonical gaol is exactly as stated. In fact this is not quite the shortest way to express the goal of buddhism. Canonically, you can also say, that the final goal is the end of suffering, the actual saying rendered in English is a quote from the Buddha: "I only teach "dukkha" (suffering) and the end of "dukkha" (suffering)". That is the shortest possible way to summarize Buddhism in its entirity. I have use the original Pali term "dukkha" as the translation of it as suffering is a remnant of the early translation efforts by Annie Besant (of Theosophy fame) and her associates. The term dukkha has a much broader meaning than that of suffering as normally understood in English.

[Ben Young]

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attachment is the cause of all suffering.

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Don't you feel attachment to all those you love?, or do you think personal fulfillment is more important?

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I feel attachment to those I love yes, and I don't value personal fulfillment, or at least, I try not to. Attachment is the cause of suffering, but suffering is not the only thing that results from attachment. Also, I don't think love and attachment need to interweave nearly as deeply and directly as suffering and attachment do.

[BluffTHIS!]

Hi Ben,

I think you know from my postings here what I believe, i.e. catholic christianity. And I think you have a wrong view of christianity, partially due no doubt to being raised christian, but not really being formed as a christian and understanding the basis for its beliefs. But the core concept is that we all are children of God, and that as great as His justice is, His Divine Mercy is even greater, and that we were not created for this life primarily, but for the one to come after. Part of what you are discussing involves the problem of evil and suffering that I discuss some in the other thread. It mainly as I said there involves free will. And like that tutor told you, christians do see redemptive and spiritual value in patient suffering, though that seems just a platitude to most. And I have said that I believe that whatever is good and true in another religion, which doesn't possess the full truth, must nonetheless come from God. Thus the Buddhist teaching on suffering actually has resonance with christian teachings on being attached to either material possessions or persons or habits, rather than mainly to God.

And since we view this life as a gateway to the afterlife, then the subject of death has a lot of meaning, not only for being the doorway, but also for how we should live this life. Again Buddhism has many parallels, and a true gem for its view of death and its implications for this life is Warrior of Zen: The Diamond Hard Widsom Mind of Suzuki Shosan. I have always had an interest in philosphical Buddhism and Taoism, and recommend that book highly to you.

You also speak of being turned off by christianity because of its teachings on homosexuality and divine punishment. But God does not condemn a person for an attraction, but only for acts that are prohibited where there is no contrition or minimal attempts to not to repeat same in the future. And all this is part of a larger package and can't be separated out. I don't think you really understand what christianity is about, and if you would like to, then let Jesus speak to you directly by reading the gospels.

But if you want to remain a Buddhist, then be a good Buddhist, and not someone who just picks some convenient parts of that belief system (there are of course several different sects of Buddhism). One is not a Buddhist or a Christian by either subscribing to certain beliefs or merely professing to be same, but by living a Buddhist or a Christian life. And living that life doesn't mean living it perfectly, but just striving for that perfection and having a dertermination to begin again when one falters.

I hope that you are able to come to believe that this life is worth living both for itself, and for the future one to come (or Nirvana).

[Ben Young]

I understand the whole thing about not being punished for homosexual attraction, yet being punished for homosexual sex, and such acts. I disagree with a God who punishes this. Also, I have read very deeply into the gospels. I believe they can be a great tool for many people, they just aren't for me. Thanks for your excellent reply.

[blank frank]

Buddha is right we he says that attachment leads to suffering. The thing that most strikes me about your post is what you say about being dragged to church. It sounds like it brings you suffering, which makes me think you are attached to your angst and your issues with Christianity. I think if you let go of that, it will bring you less suffering, bring your father less suffering, and bring the two of you closer together.

[KipBond]

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Buddha is right we he says that attachment leads to suffering. The thing that most strikes me about your post is what you say about being dragged to church. It sounds like it brings you suffering, which makes me think you are attached to your angst and your issues with Christianity. I think if you let go of that, it will bring you less suffering, bring your father less suffering, and bring the two of you closer together.

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I agree with this. This is my goal as well. Not that I'm attached to that goal, of course. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

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My personal philosophy, is above all, to come to peace, end suffering, fade away, etc, in enlightenment. However, I don't deny that God exists in any form that is perpetuated by modern religions, or otherwise. I do not worship God, though. I feel that I have no obligation to do so, that if I was created, it was knowing I had the potential for complete independent thought, so I should not be punished for it. I could ramble on, but basically, I believe that even if there is a God, I should not serve him/her. Is there a name for this?

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I'd call it rational agnosticism.

[jspostjr]

If you were God how would you build a world where people could know joy? Without passing through sorrow how would one know joy? The greater the sorrow the greater the potential for joy.

Life is not about self. The thing you are most attached to is self. Loose yourself in the service of others and you will find yourself. You are God in the making as surely as you are your earthly father's son.

[madnak]

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If you were God how would you build a world where people could know joy? Without passing through sorrow how would one know joy? The greater the sorrow the greater the potential for joy.

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Yeah? Care to prove it, or even just back it up? Because everything we know suggests otherwise.

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Life is not about self. The thing you are most attached to is self. Loose yourself in the service of others and you will find yourself. You are God in the making as surely as you are your earthly father's son.

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Hey, and given paternity results these days...

[Splendour]

Bluffthis made a very nice post Ben.

The Gospels of Matthew, Mark, Luke and John go right to the heart of the matter, but here's a pearl of wisdom I want to share with you.

If you read the bible from front to back the verse at the very center of the bible is Psalm 118 verse 8. I believe the fact that this message is dead center in the bible is no mere coincidence.

Psalm 118
1 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good;
his love endures forever.

2 Let Israel say:
"His love endures forever."

3 Let the house of Aaron say:
"His love endures forever."

4 Let those who fear the LORD say:
"His love endures forever."

5 In my anguish I cried to the LORD,
and he answered by setting me free.

6 The LORD is with me; I will not be afraid.
What can man do to me?

7 The LORD is with me; he is my helper.
I will look in triumph on my enemies.

8 It is better to take refuge in the LORD than to trust in man.

9 It is better to take refuge in the LORD
than to trust in princes.

10 All the nations surrounded me,
but in the name of the LORD I cut them off.

11 They surrounded me on every side,
but in the name of the LORD I cut them off.

12 They swarmed around me like bees,
but they died out as quickly as burning thorns;
in the name of the LORD I cut them off.

13 I was pushed back and about to fall,
but the LORD helped me.

14 The LORD is my strength and my song;
he has become my salvation.

15 Shouts of joy and victory
resound in the tents of the righteous:
"The LORD's right hand has done mighty things!

16 The LORD's right hand is lifted high;
the LORD's right hand has done mighty things!"

17 I will not die but live,
and will proclaim what the LORD has done.

18 The LORD has chastened me severely,
but he has not given me over to death.

19 Open for me the gates of righteousness;
I will enter and give thanks to the LORD.

20 This is the gate of the LORD
through which the righteous may enter.

21 I will give you thanks, for you answered me;
you have become my salvation.

22 The stone the builders rejected
has become the capstone;

23 the LORD has done this,
and it is marvelous in our eyes.

24 This is the day the LORD has made;
let us rejoice and be glad in it.

25 O LORD, save us;
O LORD, grant us success.

26 Blessed is he who comes in the name of the LORD.
From the house of the LORD we bless you.

27 The LORD is God,
and he has made his light shine upon us.
With boughs in hand, join in the festal procession
up to the horns of the altar.

28 You are my God, and I will give you thanks;
you are my God, and I will exalt you.

29 Give thanks to the LORD, for he is good;
his love endures forever.

This is one of my favorite psalms right up there with the 23rd. I guess what always gets me is the "his love endures forever" part.

Here's a link to a song expresses the heart of the Gospel.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dDCdGPJQ-hM