25NL: How's my line? - Page 2

Maunzekater · #11 11-09-2007, 04:47 AM

Forgot to say you are 100% right about not going to war with 2nd pair. This can be a very expensive lesson, out beloved standard spewtard loves to fastplay his TPNK hands. Let them pay for not knowing what a kicker is and save your money for the time they spike 2pair on later streets.

Nick C · #12 11-09-2007, 04:49 AM

I should have mentioned that one thing that makes the play close is that you're basically risking $27 to win $15. There aren't many worse hands Villain is likely to call with (aside from flush draws).

Still, as I suggested before, I would probably do what you did. And another option to consider (and in a way it's the more aggressive play) would be to call with the plan of calling again on the river.

Against this guy, I think I prefer both of those options to folding.

OSUGreg1983 · #13 11-09-2007, 04:53 AM

Here's how it played out, I will definitely take all advice into consideration.

Poker Stars, $0.10/$0.25 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 5 Players
LeggoPoker Hand History Converter

CO: $34
BTN: $24.65
SB: $22.80
Hero (BB): $29.95
UTG: $28.05

Pre-Flop: 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BB)
UTG raises to $1, CO calls $1, 2 folds, Hero calls $0.75

Flop: ($3.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (3 Players)
Hero checks, UTG checks, CO bets $2, Hero calls $2, UTG folds

Turn: ($7.10) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] (2 Players)
Hero checks, CO bets $7.50, Hero raises to $20, CO folds

Results: $22.10 Pot ($1.05 Rake)
Hero mucked 8[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] and WON $21.05 (+$10.55 NET)

Nick C · #14 11-09-2007, 04:55 AM

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Flat calling here is a weak play IMO b/c any river card is a scare card for me and I dont want to face a push on that street.

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FWIW, though, if your read on Villain is that he'll probably fire again on the river no matter what he has, then I think flat calling is better than checkraising.

The checkraise does not protect your hand against this guy (or at least not enough to make it worth bothering with if Villain will fire again with A9o UI on the river). The checkraise gets value versus a flush draw and worse pairs, but, then again, was this Villain really going to check a bust behind on the river? And if he has XX, there certainly is something to say for letting him continue to bluff, despite the fact that that XX could have 6 outs versus your 88.

OSUGreg1983 · #15 11-09-2007, 04:58 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flat calling here is a weak play IMO b/c any river card is a scare card for me and I dont want to face a push on that street.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, though, if your read on Villain is that he'll probably fire again on the river no matter what he has, then I think flat calling is better than checkraising.

The checkraise does not protect your hand against this guy (or at least not enough to make it worth bothering with if Villain will fire again with A9o UI on the river). The checkraise gets value versus a flush draw and worse pairs, but, then again, was this Villain really going to check a bust behind on the river? And if he has XX, there certainly is something to say for letting him continue to bluff, despite the fact that that XX could have 6 outs versus your 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I flat call and he has 2 non-paired overs he has 6 outs to win. Thus, any non 8 is a scare on the river. I feel protecting my hand is necessary against a possible 6 out draw.

Maunzekater · #16 11-09-2007, 05:01 AM

[ QUOTE ]
High variance I agree for the most part, but I feel against these types of players its necessary to do this every once and awhile. One could argue its not a good spot, but I had a very good read and gut feeling I was ahead of his range most of the time.

Flat calling here is a weak play IMO b/c any river card is a scare card for me and I dont want to face a push on that street.

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't want to criticize your play in this hand, as it is unlikely for him to have a great hand. He will have a mediocre hand most of the time, just like you.

What i wanted to say is that there are many great spots to stack him where they are drawing very slim. It's so incredible easy to win all their money, it needs only patience. Like poneez said, overpairs or TPTK-like hands are the nuts against spewtards.

OSUGreg1983 · #17 11-09-2007, 05:02 AM

True

Nick C · #18 11-09-2007, 05:06 AM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Flat calling here is a weak play IMO b/c any river card is a scare card for me and I dont want to face a push on that street.

[/ QUOTE ]

FWIW, though, if your read on Villain is that he'll probably fire again on the river no matter what he has, then I think flat calling is better than checkraising.

The checkraise does not protect your hand against this guy (or at least not enough to make it worth bothering with if Villain will fire again with A9o UI on the river). The checkraise gets value versus a flush draw and worse pairs, but, then again, was this Villain really going to check a bust behind on the river? And if he has XX, there certainly is something to say for letting him continue to bluff, despite the fact that that XX could have 6 outs versus your 88.

[/ QUOTE ]

If I flat call and he has 2 non-paired overs he has 6 outs to win. Thus, any non 8 is a scare on the river. I feel protecting my hand is necessary against a possible 6 out draw.

[/ QUOTE ]

I think it really depends on Villain's tendencies. I mean, if that turn bet is very likely the last money he's putting in UI with A9o (or if he'll often just make some trivial symbolic river bluff instead of betting big again), then, sure, you should push him off of it now. But if he's going to make a desperation river push (or something close to it) instead, then you're letting him off easy with his 6-outer (a 6-outer is only going to suck out on you on the river about 1 in 7 times).

checktheriver · #19 11-09-2007, 06:23 AM

If Villain is really taking this line with ~atc, I think flat calling and calling any river is better than shoving. You don't really need to protect that much against a 6-outer as Nick C pointed out. It is also read-dependant but sometimes these maniacs won't valuebet if they hit their TP on the river, and only keep firing with air, which obviously is good for you.

ama0330 · #20 11-09-2007, 06:31 AM

[ QUOTE ]
FWIW, though, if your read on Villain is that he'll probably fire again on the river no matter what he has, then I think flat calling is better than checkraising.

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree. Its pretty much a question of the size of your balls. You can raise the turn and shut down the hand, taking a nice profit, or you can call the turn and let him hang himself on the river - but you'll have an iffy call when a broadway flops.

(fwiw I probably raise the turn [img]/images/graemlins/frown.gif[/img])