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#1
11-20-2007, 12:53 PM
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Detecting a form of cheating
Several factors (beyond the utterly bizarre play of a number of hands) have made me concerned that a player in a club game is cheating, possibly with dealer help. The player has a strong preference for the 1/10 seats (who seat-changes from the 9 to the 1-seat?) and his results are much better there. Away from the dealer, he's just a loose, awful, losing player. Next to the dealer, he's still outwardly terrible backtracking from showdown to evaluate decisions throughout the hand, but he's a chip-vacuuming machine. He doesn't just make loose calls, hit big hands, and then get paid off.. he aggressively gets money in, then spikes hands.. over, and over, and over, and from other people's reports, the guy is a big long-term winner in the game BY DOING THAT A LOT. And for the stupid number of hands he hits, he gets to the river (after calling a turn bet) with busted draws way too infrequently. So he's on the heater of all heaters, or something fishy is going on.
I don't think he's holding out, since it doesn't fit the play that well, but I guess it's possible. His play from the 1/10 seat is consistent with a loose-bad player who knows the turn (and possibly river) before it comes out. Burn cards and hired dealers are used, of course. The game is juicy enough to keep playing in (if I just sit in the 2-3 and fold every hand he's in), and I'm not 100% convinced that the guy is cheating yet, just that it's a strong possibility. What should I be looking for? The shuffle and cut by the dealer appear legit, and there's no obvious dealer peeking at the stub. 
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#3
11-20-2007, 01:48 PM
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Re: Detecting a form of cheating
[ QUOTE ]
A dealer could show the top cards by rolling the deck. few players actually notice this. [/ QUOTE ] To be clear, there could be an idiosyncrasy in the habits of the Dealer that exposes cards while dealing which the Player has noticed - the Dealer may very well be ignorant and not knowingly taking part in any scam
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#5
11-20-2007, 02:41 PM
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Re: Detecting a form of cheating
Since you'll be folding anyway, do an experiment and watch him. Watch his eye direction if possible, watch the dealer mechanics during those hands, try to pick up on the clues that this is going on.
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#6
11-20-2007, 04:02 PM
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Re: Detecting a form of cheating
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ] A dealer could show the top cards by rolling the deck. few players actually notice this. [/ QUOTE ] To be clear, there could be an idiosyncrasy in the habits of the Dealer that exposes cards while dealing which the Player has noticed - the Dealer may very well be ignorant and not knowingly taking part in any scam [/ QUOTE ] While that is possible, the dealer may not be intentionally cheating, the dealer bears responsibility for poor dealing technique.
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#7
11-20-2007, 09:32 PM
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Re: Detecting a form of cheating
I've watched his eyes.. and he noticed really fast when I was looking at him, even when it wasn't a direct stare, and even when I wasn't in the hand. He watches the dealer's hands a lot during the deal, and he has a tendency to lean fairly far back, both of which improve any angle to view cards. It wouldn't surprise me if he knew some cards went to some places in some hands. I've noticed that the dealer doesn't keep the top of the stub perfectly aligned- it's not far off, but it's possible that it's visible from a perfect angle/if the dealer tilts it.
Please explain what you meant by rolling the deck- I'm visualizing the dealer dealing the flop, fanning the top cards out a little as he brings the stub back, tilting them so the player can see, and then undoing the fan. It's hard to tell if he's looking at the flop or the dealer's hands when they're still pretty close together, but I'll try to track that better.
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#8
11-20-2007, 09:40 PM
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Re: Detecting a form of cheating
Rolling the deck is failing to keep the deck level. This can be tilted slightly as you describe or completely turning it upside down.
Umagine sitting in the one seat. Dealer with the deck in his left hand reaches out to the two or three seat to bring ion a bet or mucked cards, he rotates his hand clockwise (like turning a doorknob) This is completely improper technique. with a little pressure intentionally or accidentally the dealer can push up the top cards and they can be seen by the players in the 1 or 2 seats. There really is no excuse for a dealer to roll the deck but it is a common occurrence because many dealers are lazy and most think the cut card on the bottom of the deck protects the deck, but its not the card at the bottom that we are concerned with.
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#9
11-20-2007, 10:50 PM
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Re: Detecting a form of cheating
Sure sounds like cheating. Hard to prove though. Why don't you conspire with one other player there you trust to get there early each time and grab the one and ten seats. If the dealer or cheating player then start to do some sort of antics to get the player back to position, you'll know the truth of it.
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#10
11-21-2007, 12:01 AM
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Re: Detecting a form of cheating
[ QUOTE ]
Sure sounds like cheating. Hard to prove though. Why don't you conspire with one other player there you trust to get there early each time and grab the one and ten seats. If the dealer or cheating player then start to do some sort of antics to get the player back to position, you'll know the truth of it. [/ QUOTE ] I actually doubt that the dealers are in on this. More likely if this is what is happening its just sloppy dealing being taken advantage of. Of course it alsomay be that the OP is off base about what is happening and its just cooincidence that he has noticed him winning in these seats.
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