Ethics of stalling vs. EV

[bogey1]

Not sure what group this goes in...

First, the assumption: the smaller the M the more of a luckfest and the more likely the winner is related to the chip stacks.

Situation:
You're in the final table of a big tourney. WSOP, sunday Million, something that's big bucks to you. You've got a competitive chip stack. You're a decent poker player, but clearly outclassed by the other people at the final table.

Given your chip stack and you're calibre of opponents, it's best for you if you could basically play your cards and shove or fold. Lessen the skill factor. If you could, you'd love the blinds to crank up fast and make everyone "short". So, a +EV strategy would be to play as slow as you possibly can. Take forever with every fold, every bet. Let as few hands get played per blind level as possible.

Clearly this is rude at the least, and while legal, some would consider unethical. It is, however, a valid strategy.

At what stake is it worth it to you to stay "ethical" and play normally vs stall and try to make it a luckfest?

Me? If I'm in the final of a WSOP or even a Sunday million...I stall like freaking crazy. The EV I gain, what those $ can do for my family seems like a no brainer. Final of a $10 tourney, it's just rude and obnoxious to stall. So, clearly, the prize stake matters to me. Where would it matter to you?

If you're facing such an opponent and you know exactly why they're stalling, do you still despise them or do you (probably grudgingly) respect they're doing what little they can within the system to better their chances?

[NickMPK]

This is not a "valid strategy"...it is a despicable angle shoot. You would not be allowed to do this in a live tournament. I assumed your post would be about stalling on the bubble, but stalling just to raise the blinds is absurd.

It is also at most a tiny EV gain. More importantly, if you really believe that stalling is the good tactic for you at a given stake, then you should be playing much lower stakes.

[BrandiFan]

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It is also at most a tiny EV gain. More importantly, if you really believe that stalling is the good tactic for you at a given stake, then you should be playing with me at those stakes.

[/ QUOTE ]fyp

[whymelord]

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You would not be allowed to do this in a live tournament.

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Who would stop you as you agonize over your decisions? Other players call the clock on you? So you get 1 minute for each decision? Seems to be just putting them on tilt....

Ok, you can flame me for this one: Would it not be to the advantage of a large chip leader to slow down the action so the blinds will put more pressure on the smaller stacks?

[bogey1]

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This is not a "valid strategy"...it is a despicable angle shoot. You would not be allowed to do this in a live tournament.


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Fine, angle shoot. I'm not tricking anyone though. I'm not circumventing a rule. I'm just ignoring ediquette. As someone else said, how is it going to be stopped? I get a certain amount of time for each decision. If I take the full time for each move, what are they going to penalize me on?

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It is also at most a tiny EV gain.

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That's why I asked at what stakes someone would consider it. Say it's 4 people and the prize diff between 1st and 4th is $1 mil, equal chips. By chip count I'm 25% to get 1st, but by skill I'm say 15%. If I increase my shot at 1st by 1% by playing slow, that's $10,000. I'm pretty content to slow the game down for a few hours to increase my EV by $10,000.

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More importantly, if you really believe that stalling is the good tactic for you at a given stake, then you should be playing much lower stakes.

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Well duh. I could satellite to something like a WSOP and luck into a FT appearance (donks do, all the time). Few of the players in the WSOP are playing within their bankroll. They're on a vacation of sorts.

This is sort of all theoretical, just a thought. Calling it a "dispicable angleshoot" is pretty harsh. Seems a heck of a lot less dispicable than pretending to be nice to a chronic gambler and encouraging him to rebuy because he's due to run hot...

[NickMPK]

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You would not be allowed to do this in a live tournament.

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Who would stop you as you agonize over your decisions? Other players call the clock on you? So you get 1 minute for each decision? Seems to be just putting them on tilt....


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The floor would stop you if you routinely stalled and someone complained. They would put a clock on you immediately before every action, and if you kept stalling, they would give you a penalty.

[NickMPK]

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This is not a "valid strategy"...it is a despicable angle shoot. You would not be allowed to do this in a live tournament.


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Fine, angle shoot. I'm not tricking anyone though. I'm not circumventing a rule. I'm just ignoring ediquette. As someone else said, how is it going to be stopped? I get a certain amount of time for each decision. If I take the full time for each move, what are they going to penalize me on?


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What if I decide it would be +EV to scream at the top of my lungs everytime someone else is making a decision? That's just ignoring etiquette too, right? Is it a valid strategy?

And repeated intentional stalling would be stopped/penalized by any reasonable tournament director.

[RR]

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You would not be allowed to do this in a live tournament.

[/ QUOTE ]
Who would stop you as you agonize over your decisions? Other players call the clock on you? So you get 1 minute for each decision? Seems to be just putting them on tilt....

Ok, you can flame me for this one: Would it not be to the advantage of a large chip leader to slow down the action so the blinds will put more pressure on the smaller stacks?

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Or you could receive a penalty for not conducting yourself as a lady or gentleman.

[bogey1]

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This is not a "valid strategy"...it is a despicable angle shoot. You would not be allowed to do this in a live tournament.


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Fine, angle shoot. I'm not tricking anyone though. I'm not circumventing a rule. I'm just ignoring ediquette. As someone else said, how is it going to be stopped? I get a certain amount of time for each decision. If I take the full time for each move, what are they going to penalize me on?


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What if I decide it would be +EV to scream at the top of my lungs everytime someone else is making a decision? That's just ignoring etiquette too, right? Is it a valid strategy?

And repeated intentional stalling would be stopped/penalized by any reasonable tournament director.

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First, screaming is hardly the same as sitting quietly and taking longer than you'd normally take. Second, I believe it's explicitly illegal to intentionally be disruptive on other player's turns, which moves beyond a questionable tactic into outright rule breaking. You're letting your emotions dictate your responses and consideration on this issue. I was talking about a tactic (angle shoot or not) aimed at creating +EV and how much money would have to be at stake for people to use it. You're going hysterical crying "dispicable" and inventing madmen screaming at the table as somehow an equivalent argument. Maybe you're easy to put on tilt?

Still, somewhere in your frothing at the mouth, you've managed to indicate stalling would be penalized at some point. I'm interested, in a sort of academic way, what that point would be and how it'd be enforced. They could clock me each time from the point it was my turn to act. That'd be fine and reasonable.

Note: Has anyone, ever, been warned about stalling online? I doubt it. What makes you think they're really going to take heavy handed action at a live tournament for being slow? At the least, I'd guess you'd get a warning first.

[NickMPK]

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First, screaming is hardly the same as sitting quietly and taking longer than you'd normally take. Second, I believe it's explicitly illegal to intentionally be disruptive on other player's turns, which moves beyond a questionable tactic into outright rule breaking. You're letting your emotions dictate your responses and consideration on this issue. I was talking about a tactic (angle shoot or not) aimed at creating +EV and how much money would have to be at stake for people to use it. You're going hysterical crying "dispicable" and inventing madmen screaming at the table as somehow an equivalent argument. Maybe you're easy to put on tilt?

Still, somewhere in your frothing at the mouth, you've managed to indicate stalling would be penalized at some point. I'm interested, in a sort of academic way, what that point would be and how it'd be enforced. They could clock me each time from the point it was my turn to act. That'd be fine and reasonable.

Note: Has anyone, ever, been warned about stalling online? I doubt it. What makes you think they're really going to take heavy handed action at a live tournament for being slow? At the least, I'd guess you'd get a warning first.

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In an online tournament, there isn't anything you can do about it, but this is why online sites have implemented time banks (I don't play online anymore so I don't know how the various sites do it.)

In a live tournament, you would have to stall several times before you even got a warning. But if the purpose of stalling was just to increase the blinds, you're talking about stalling for hours. You'd be penalized much earlier than that. You could get away with stalling a little at the end of a level so that the blind increases hit you in good position, but you'd never be able to stall through an entire level or more.

Honestly, I've heard of players stalling for several reasons, but I've never heard this one.