16: I thought this was a fairly standard push

[eurythmech]

Yeah, well...I think you worded it too strongly. "Cannot" is just so off.

[loxxii]

This is +EV all the way down to 66+,A8+,KQ for the shorties and TT+, AQ+ for the big stack, which I think is very loose for all of them. In game, I expected them to be even tighter than this.

I should have mentioned in the post that the BTN had just made a come back and the SB was waiting for him to bust. The big stack was not horrible, so I was surprised by his call.

I will fold trash hands as the 2nd big stack on the bubble from now on, but my question is, how do we define pwning the bubble?

[saddu]

i saw spacegravy pushing atc in maaaany of this situation,
maybe becouse he was playng at 60s

[Luisgallo]

I don't think you can pwn the bubble when you are at risk to bubble yourself.

AQ call is bad but not awful especially if villain had a some history vs you and in the past you pushed ATC in that spot.

Unfortunately push/call ranges applies in our opponents' decision too.

[Q..]

[ QUOTE ]
I don't think you can pwn the bubble when you are at risk to bubble yourself.


[/ QUOTE ]

Pretty much agree with that, here you can pwn bubble when big stack has acted already and folded - dealer and sb pushes give great +ev spots, he can't do that too much because u are in front of short stacks for him. After some folds from him and pushes from you youll have him covered and can start pushing trash from utg too, to pwn the bubble [img]/images/graemlins/wink.gif[/img]

[fanapathy]

Reckless shove. TBH I might even spitecall you here with AQ if you're a regular for the reasons above and because you're not supposed to be running the show here.

"This is +EV all the way down to 66+,A8+,KQ for the shorties and TT+, AQ+ for the big stack, which I think is very loose for all of them."

No, it's not loose. On average they call much wider than that. Varies from table to table so it's nice to have a read but with no read on the table, no way in hell this is a shove. [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

Edit: Someone mentioned something about it being a shove from the button. No. With 10 effective BBs into two stacks on the bubble, I believe even ATo is a fold from button with average ranges. $16 is just one of those levels where idiots wake up with QJ and decide it's the nuts. Oh wait, maybe that's $6.5. No, J2o is the equivalent there.

What I'm saying anyway is that a problem many good winning players are having these days is shoving waaaay too wide from the button. Sure, KT looks like an autoshove sometimes. A2 should be worth going after that pot there or my 56s. No way. Be tight from CO&Button and shove any two from SB is the answer to loads of trouble.

[Velocity]

I'm pretty sure the nash equillibrium says you should shove this, but in actuality people suck and call way too wide so I probably fold. Or maybe raise in between because people won't pwn us too much at low stakes but most of the time fold.

[TruFloridaGator]

Those ranges aren't way off, this is very close.

[fanapathy]

Yes exactly, if everybody plays equilibrium this hand and a ton of other junk hands become instashoves.

Our equilibrium here doesn't however. If everybody plays perfect, like will be close in the highest SnGs, every shove can be based on "we know that he knows that he can't call profitably with those and those hands" and so on, so we can know when to push any two because we know they won't call without a hand that is a profitable call. That's a totally different world, and TBH playing higher stakes games relieves a lot of range-frustration since in literally every game on lowerstakes we must use different ranges. That's what the 234252-table players are specifically good at, applying the average range of the donkness of the level through experience and base the ICM decision on that.

[IFoldPktOnes]

I push this and would even be happy with slightly -EV according to ICM. The stacksizes after a successful steal here give you a significant advantage and will more than make up for this marginal push in my opinion.

[ QUOTE ]

I don't understand the topic name - "thought", icm cannot be really thought of felt usually, especially on bubble, just run it in sngpt and this would be pretty minus ev.

[/ QUOTE ]
Thinking about how to correctly apply/adapt ICM is the next step to improving after learning basic ICM. You have to do some thinking and put this hand in its context instead of analyzing it isolation.