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  #91  
Old 07-23-2007, 02:52 PM
loosbastard loosbastard is offline
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Default Re: 200NL 6max Combo Draw bet/3bet?

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There aren't any pairing hearts.

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Right...missed that.

You say a 9 is the best card for our hand, but then others say calling > shoving because of button's range (which I'm assuming means he has 55 a lot). Isn't this contradicting? And if bigger [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img][img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] makes up a significant part of his range...then obviously shove >>> call.
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  #92  
Old 07-23-2007, 02:55 PM
toybux toybux is offline
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Default Re: 200NL 6max Combo Draw bet/3bet?

I think that the problem with calling is that if you end up getting a lot of money in after you hit a heart, you're going to be beat the majority of the time (assuming you're not playing huge donkeys). I think people underestimate the amount of reverse implied odds we are going to get if we just flat call here. We sure don't have any implied odds, because it'll be really hard to get people to put money in on a heart unless you luck out and they have lower hearts.

On the other hand, shoving isn't too attractive either because you probably don't have a ton of fold equity. There is a lot of dead money in the pot, and I really don't like calling. Since a shove is a pretty big overbet, I think I'd probably make it like $160 and call a push or push the turn.
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  #93  
Old 07-23-2007, 02:57 PM
loosbastard loosbastard is offline
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Default Re: 200NL 6max Combo Draw bet/3bet?

[ QUOTE ]
I think that the problem with calling is that if you end up getting a lot of money in after you hit a heart, you're going to be beat the majority of the time (assuming you're not playing huge donkeys). I think people underestimate the amount of reverse implied odds we are going to get if we just flat call here. We sure don't have any implied odds, because it'll be really hard to get people to put money in on a heart unless you luck out and they have lower hearts.

On the other hand, shoving isn't too attractive either because you probably don't have a ton of fold equity. There is a lot of dead money in the pot, and I really don't like calling. Since a shove is a pretty big overbet, I think I'd probably make it like $160 and call a push or push the turn.

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You've summed up my thinking almost exactly, but a lot of very good players disagree. Not sure what to think anymore. [img]/images/graemlins/confused.gif[/img]
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  #94  
Old 07-23-2007, 03:01 PM
mertzo mertzo is offline
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Default Re: 200NL 6max Combo Draw bet/3bet?

The thing is that there are way more combinations of made hands than higher FDs.
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  #95  
Old 07-23-2007, 03:03 PM
loosbastard loosbastard is offline
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Default Re: 200NL 6max Combo Draw bet/3bet?

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The thing is that there are way more combinations of made hands than higher FDs.

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Yeah but the only realistic one we're in that bad of shape against (and can't get a fold from) is 55.
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  #96  
Old 07-23-2007, 03:09 PM
Nielsio Nielsio is offline
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Default Re: 200NL 6max Combo Draw bet/3bet?

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You disagree with a ton of respected big winners on a lot of hands, and are very dismissive of their reasoning.

This might be ok, if most of your advice weren't complete [censored]

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LOL...that's because half the advice in this forum is f'ing terrible these days. Oh and weren't about half the posters in this thread AGREEING w/ me?

You disagree in just about every thread I post in, then when I prove to be [censored] dead on...you completely disappear. I know you're a respected poster around here, and generally your advice is good...but your holier than thou attitude and one line answers are [censored] annoying. You know there are others that have been beating SSNL for a long time...and not all of them play exactly the way you do. It's a funny game that way.

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Honestly. like every person that agrees with the call>shove line is a big winner in the games they play/gives solid advice on a consistent basis. The same can't be said for the people that advocate shove. I don't like [censored] name dropping but that's the bottom line.

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This is not a popularity contest. This is about analysis and learning. Pulling rank doesn't help anyone. What helps is the arguments. Saying x is correct because big winner y said so does not help our understanding of the game.
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  #97  
Old 07-23-2007, 03:16 PM
Speedlimits Speedlimits is offline
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Default Re: 200NL 6max Combo Draw bet/3bet?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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You disagree with a ton of respected big winners on a lot of hands, and are very dismissive of their reasoning.

This might be ok, if most of your advice weren't complete [censored]

[/ QUOTE ]

LOL...that's because half the advice in this forum is f'ing terrible these days. Oh and weren't about half the posters in this thread AGREEING w/ me?

You disagree in just about every thread I post in, then when I prove to be [censored] dead on...you completely disappear. I know you're a respected poster around here, and generally your advice is good...but your holier than thou attitude and one line answers are [censored] annoying. You know there are others that have been beating SSNL for a long time...and not all of them play exactly the way you do. It's a funny game that way.

[/ QUOTE ]

Honestly. like every person that agrees with the call>shove line is a big winner in the games they play/gives solid advice on a consistent basis. The same can't be said for the people that advocate shove. I don't like [censored] name dropping but that's the bottom line.

[/ QUOTE ]


This is not a popularity contest. This is about analysis and learning. Pulling rank doesn't help anyone. What helps is the arguments. Saying x is correct because big winner y said so does not help our understanding of the game.

[/ QUOTE ]

You're right. And it has been explained why calling is better than shoving. Yet the people who advocate shoving haven't changed their mind. Oh and everyone's advice isn't equal in case you haven't noticed.
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  #98  
Old 07-23-2007, 03:27 PM
mittman84 mittman84 is offline
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Default Re: 200NL 6max Combo Draw bet/3bet?

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calling is sooooo superior to shoving here given their ranges

[/ QUOTE ]What is the plan for the turn given a heart comes? What if it is a brick?

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We play poker. Seriously there are [censored] tonnes of different scenarios for this turn if we call the flop. Going in with a set plan of 'I'm doing this on a heart turn is really bad.'

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if you just call the flop you are closing the action and first to act on the turn.........your bickering would be legit if you were in possition. By calling you are making two moves in a row. There is absolutly no more information to gain other than what card comes off, so there is no reason not to have a plan for your next move when calling the flop.
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  #99  
Old 07-23-2007, 03:49 PM
bubaloo bubaloo is offline
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Default Re: 200NL 6max Combo Draw bet/3bet?

imo raising>>>>calling>>>>shov ing
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  #100  
Old 07-23-2007, 04:08 PM
SANrider SANrider is offline
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Join Date: May 2007
Posts: 23
Default Re: 200NL 6max Combo Draw bet/3bet?

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
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calling is sooooo superior to shoving here given their ranges

[/ QUOTE ]What is the plan for the turn given a heart comes? What if it is a brick?

[/ QUOTE ]

We play poker. Seriously there are [censored] tonnes of different scenarios for this turn if we call the flop. Going in with a set plan of 'I'm doing this on a heart turn is really bad.'

[/ QUOTE ]

I agree with Mittman...if you close out the action by calling you MUST have a plan for the turn...there are really only four scenarios that can affect our decision...
with that being said what are you going to do when:
1) a nine hits (if u put him on set u r still crushed)
2) an eight hits (same as above)
3) a heart hits (which might kill your action)
4) u brick (u probably have to C/F)
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