The dealer said I couldn't do it - Page 4

Garland · #31 11-11-2007, 03:09 AM

Here's a not-so-far fetched situation:

Player A, B and C are in a no-limit game and everyone is kind of learning. It's not their 1st session, but everyone has played only a handful of times.

Hand #1. It gets heads up on the river between Player A and Player B. Player A checks, Player B bets $75, Player A says too much. Ok, Player B pulls back $50, Player A calls the $25, and Player B wins. No one says anything at the table, because it's nobody else's business and everyone is happy, right?

Hand #2. It gets 3 ways to the river. Player A checks, Player B checks, Player C bets $75. Player A folds, Player B hems and haws, Player C learning what happened in Hand #1 and wanting a call tries to pull back $50 and now Player A cries foul and Player C is wondering what the heck is going on when he is forced to put his $50 back on the table. As he is explained that heads-up players have special "privileges", he asks to see that in the rules (which obviously isn't there).

Seems to me you're opening up a can of worms flexing the rules leaving interpretation problems for other players (especially newer ones) at the table. If it's going to be acceptable practice to allow players heads up to take partial bets back, I say put it in the rule books.

Garland

RR · #32 11-11-2007, 03:21 AM

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Can someone please show me where it is written that the rules go out the window when a hand is heads-up? I have never heard of that, have never read it anywhere, and the guy can't pull back part of his bet.

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I will spell out more clearly what psandman says in reply to this. Who says they can't pull back the bet? There are two people that have standing to say he can't pull back the bet and they are both in favor of it. As I posted earlier in this thread the dealer needs to stay out of it and mind his own business. It is the players' game, if the players want to hear from the dealer they will let him know.

RR · #33 11-11-2007, 03:30 AM

Doesn't take more than a couple of seconds to say "you can only do that heads up." This does raise a point. Until very recently big bet poker was only played by a handful of people. These people all knew the rules so there was never a problem.

I am not a big fan of rule books because you can never cover every possible situation. Poker was played before there were rule books. As people learned the rules they started to write them down. I first learned this when I was writing a rule book. There was a lack of NL rules, so i talked to someone that had been involved with writing the rules for a casino that had NL. he explained the game hadn't been going long enough to be comfortable writing down the rules, but he played in the game and would help answer any questions I had. I realized then that less is better. Specific situations should be left to those that are trained in determining what is fair and equitable for all involved.

UbinTook · #34 11-11-2007, 06:31 AM

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Can someone please show me where it is written that the rules go out the window when a hand is heads-up? I have never heard of that, have never read it anywhere, and the guy can't pull back part of his bet.

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I will spell out more clearly what psandman says in reply to this. Who says they can't pull back the bet? There are two people that have standing to say he can't pull back the bet and they are both in favor of it. As I posted earlier in this thread the dealer needs to stay out of it and mind his own business. It is the players' game, if the players want to hear from the dealer they will let him know.

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The rule that says that action in turn is binding.

The rule doesn't state action in turn is binding unless its heads up, then the players can discuss/negotiate the actual bet after the initial bet has been made.

Why should they be able to take back any part of a bet?
The dealer is there to manage the game, and that includes making sure the players adhere to the rules of the game, if you want the dealer to mind his own business, play in a home game.
Casinos are business and are regulated by groups and rules that require them to run fair, impartial and consistent games the rules of which are not dictated by the players.

UbinTook · #35 11-11-2007, 06:42 AM

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Because of the state mandated bet limit.
The maximum you can bet or raise at any given time is $150 maximum. You can go all in(heads-up), but in $150 increments, you cant just push if the players agree. That is just the rule in Arizona.

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I play at the largest poker room in Arizona. I've been told several times by dealers and the floor that at any time two headsup players can agree to go all-in, to save the time of raising/reraising/ad infinitum.

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I don't know what else to tell you other than you have been grossly misinformed, OR that you have interpreted the fact that there is no cap on the number of raises( when heads-up) as meaning that you can push your stack.

Why don't you do this...skip the floor people and go to any of the shift managers or the room manager.
Ask them... if heads up and both players agree, can they both push their entire stack into the middle of the table as one all-in bet.

RR · #36 11-11-2007, 06:48 AM

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The dealer is there to manage the game

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No he isn't. He is there to deal the cards. What is he going to do, physically restrain the players from doing what they want with their money? There is always a casino down the street that has dealers that understand they need to stay out of the game.

edit to add: In most higher limit games if a dealer complains "a player told me to STFU" they will generally be told away form the table to talk less (or none at all). There are games where the dealer literally has nothing to say, ever.

Rick Nebiolo · #37 11-11-2007, 06:58 AM

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Anywhere I've played, when heads up at any limit player can offer action, I.e. offer to go allin, if the opponent agrees. Is this not true at your room and if it is how does it differ?

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About six years ago in 20/40 limit holdem at the Bicycle Casino my hero/gf gets in about four raises on the river with the nuts. Action now on her opponent who pushes his remaining $250 or so allin and asks "Do you want to play for it all? (or something similar). When she pushes her three stacks in he pulls back his nearly three stacks leaving (I think) only the amount of a call. Very experienced floor is called and rules that since it wasn't a legal raise it could be pulled back.

A few days later a shift manager at Hollywood Park said he would have insisted the money stay in (if gf wanted it to).

~ Rick

RR · #38 11-11-2007, 07:06 AM

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Anywhere I've played, when heads up at any limit player can offer action, I.e. offer to go allin, if the opponent agrees. Is this not true at your room and if it is how does it differ?

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About six years ago in 20/40 limit holdem at the Bicycle Casino my hero/gf gets in about four raises on the river with the nuts. Action now on her opponent who pushes his remaining $250 or so allin and asks "Do you want to play for it all? (or something similar). When she pushes her three stacks in he pulls back his nearly three stacks leaving (I think) only the amount of a call. Very experienced floor is called and rules that since it wasn't a legal raise it could be pulled back.

A few days later a shift manager at Hollywood Park said he would have insisted the money stay in (if gf wanted it to).

~ Rick

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In general I go with the shift manager at Hollywood Park. I know of a number of venues that I would have to go with the ruling at the Bike because there is a regulation about bet sizes and such.

Al_Capone_Junior · #39 11-11-2007, 07:14 AM

Hey man, youz guys know me, it's just a rant, nothing's really personal. It's more of a generalized commentary on the sad state of pooker these days.

Well, we should probably go ahead and kick you in the nuts anyway tho, just to be safe.

Al

Garland · #40 11-11-2007, 09:58 AM

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I don't know what else to tell you other than you have been grossly misinformed, OR that you have interpreted the fact that there is no cap on the number of raises( when heads-up) as meaning that you can push your stack.

Why don't you do this...skip the floor people and go to any of the shift managers or the room manager.
Ask them... if heads up and both players agree, can they both push their entire stack into the middle of the table as one all-in bet.

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I don't know about casinos outside San Jose, but this specific scenario came up at Garden City or Bay 101...I'm pretty sure it was Garden City.

It was limit game 20/40, and two people wanted to go all-in in one shot rather than raise/re-raise/re-raise you get the idea.

The floor and dealer were very specific that the bets must come out specifically one at a time for the camera's sake because they had to be very careful about the city ordinance regarding the maximum $200 bet rule. If they were ever caught taking that all-in short cut and tapes were reviewed, heads were gonna roll...

Garland