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#1
09-02-2007, 06:14 AM
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PokerStars say you can break their rules
If you can’t be bothered to read the correspondence below I understand, if you be bothered read from the bottom up.
Basically I was playing a 6-man S&G and it was bubble time. I was short stacked and the other 2 had gone to the river on a board showing 2 pair. Big stacked makes a huge bet and the other guy is obviously contemplating a call when big stack tells him his holding (full house). As soon as he says this the other guy folds. Naturally I bubble soon after. I complain to Stars (as below) and they agree the rules were broken. However they are not prepared to penalise him at least my buy in. Do you guys agree they are right here? Rek Hello Rek Thanks for the email. I appreciate where you are coming from here. Please rest assured that if this player repeats this kind of rule break in future we will take a much harder stance in terms of punishment. However, it is our policy to give a warning for a first offense. After this, if the player breaks the rules when they are clearly aware of them we will take further action. I hope you can understand our reasons for this policy. Regards, Michael S PokerStars Support Team ----- Original Message ----- From: Rek To: support@pokerstars.com Subject: Re: Rule 16 >Dear Chevy > >Again a disappointing response but thank you for your quick message. Once >again your customer service response times are unrivaled in online poker and >is one of the reasons I have switched to playing your site more recently >having played online now for over 3 years at numerous other sites, in >particular Full Tilt and William Hill. Keep up the good work. > >However, I am not saying (edit 1) should have called but that he could very >well have called. You say it would have been a brave call - if you play >online poker for any amount of time you will realise "brave" calls are made >time and time again. I would go as far as saying absolutely ridiculous calls >are made with almost no hope of winning - they sometimes defy belief and >leave you wondering if they are brain dead. > >Now, (edit 1) is entirely blameless, he simply folded after being informed of >his opponents hand and "knew" he was beat. (edit 2) however totally >broke the rules at my possible expense - we will never know if (edit1) would >have called but it is not beyond the realms of possibilities whatever cards >he held. > >I accept that (edit 2) may not have fully understood the rules but when >has ignorance ever been a form of defense? The rules are there and when >broken if you are reasonably penalised then everybody accepts this. If I >post this incident on 2+2 or pocket fives I am sure the majority of players >would agree with me. > >The $25 buy in refund should be the minimum amount he should be penalised. >If it was a $1 game or $500 game the same should occur. > >Losing $25 will make absolutely no difference to my online and offline poker >bankroll and for now I will continue with PokerStars but I am very very >disappointed with this matter. Warnings without financial penalties should be >given for chat abuse etc - when you break the rules and there is even the >remotest possibility of financial loss a refund should be given. Otherwise >everyone if free to abuse your rules until someone reports you. THIS IS NOT >RIGHT OR FAIR. > >Rek > > >----- Original Message ----- >From: <support@pokerstars.com> >To: Rek >Sent: Monday, August 27, 2007 05:48 >Subject: Re: Rule 16 > > >> Hello Rek, >> >> Thank you for your email. >> >> When reviewing cases such as these, our policy is to give a player the >> benefit of the doubt as far as knowledge of our rules. >> >> The player in question had no negative account notes and was given a >> warning pertaining to Tournament Rule 16 which states: >> >> "Players, whether in the hand or not, may not discuss the hands until the >> action is complete. Players are obligated to protect the other players in >> the tournament at all times. Discussing cards discarded or hand >> possibilities is not allowed. A penalty may be given for discussion of >> hands during the play. Note: the purpose of this rule is to protect the >> interests of players who are still in the tournament but not in the >> current hand. Please see our Prohibited Tournament Chat examples for >> further information. More specifically, this rule does not apply to >> situations where only two players remain in a tournament, or the >> tournament began as a heads-up match." >> >> You suggest (edit 1) should've called (edit2) because of a split pot >> possibility, whilst we're not at liberty to reveal hole cards, I can say >> that it would've been a brave call. >> >> We cannot see how the outcome of the tournament would have been affected >> had (edit 2) *not* made the comments, this would be a hypothetical >> scenario. >> >> If in the future (edit 2) makes similar comments, we'll then be able >> to administer a penalty as he'll not be able to deny knowledge of the >> rules. >> >> I certainly do understand how this players' conduct has upset you. We are >> left with the unenviable task of being impartial but fair. >> >> I trust you can appreciate our decision, however if you've further issues >> concerning this or any other matter, please don't hesitate to contact us. >> >> Regards, >> >> Chevy >> PokerStars Support Team >> >> >> ----- Original Message ----- >> From: Rek >> Sent: 2007/08/26 17:24:14 >> To: support@pokerstars.com >> Subject: Re: Unfair Chat >> >>>Dear Scott >>> >>>Very disappointed with your reply. Unless I am mistaken there were 2 pair >>>showing on the board and he could have called thinking a split pot. Not >> sure >>>if there was a possibility of a reraise bluff. >>> >>>I don’t know if you play online poker but some calls are ridiculous. >>> >>>Anyway, incidents such as these should make the winning player at least >>>forfeit the potential victims buy in and this should be refunded. >>> >>>You admit the comments breach the rules - end of story as far as I am >>>concerned. >>> >>>I don’t expect you to change your stance however. >>> >>>Rek >>> >>> >>>----- Original Message ----- >>>From: "PokerStars Support" <support@pokerstars.com> >>>To: Rek >>>Sent: Sunday, August 26, 2007 21:24 >>>Subject: RE: Unfair Chat >>> >>> >>>> Hello Rek, >>>> >>>> Thank you for your email and for taking the time to bring this to our >>>> attention. >>>> >>>> I have looked over the chat logs, and agree that some of this player's >>>> remarks were inappropriate. >>>> >>>> Comments like these are a breach of the tournament rules. We keep track >> of >>>> such incidents and as this is the first time this player has been >> involved >>>> in such an incident I have sent them a warning asking that they refrain >>>> from this type of behavior in the future. If this warning goes unheeded, >>>> much more severe penalties will be given, including likely >>>> disqualification from any tournament in which the comments are made. >>>> >>>> I can however confirm that the other player in the hand did not have a >>>> hand they could possibly call a bet with in that position though, so the >>>> outcome of the tournament was not affected at all by the comments made. >>>> >>>> If you have any further questions please don't hesitate to get back in >>>> touch with us. >>>> >>>> Regards, >>>> >>>> ScottW >>>> PokerStars Support Team >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> >>>> ----- Original Message ----- >>>> From: Rek >>>> Sent: 2007/08/26 15:25:15 >>>> To: support@pokerstars.com >>>> Subject: Unfair Chat >>>> >>>>>Hi Guys >>>>> >>>>>Just finished S&G table 59389394 ($23+$2) >>>>> >>>>>Came 3rd , out of the money. In hand 11704299072 (edit 1) was contemplating >>>> a bet into (edit 2) and (edit 2) then tells him what cards he has >>>> making (edit 1) fold. >>>>> >>>>>Now I was out of the hand and the short stack. If (edit 1) had pushed on a >>>> bluff or any type of hand the entire outcome of the game could have been >>>> different. Where do I stand here? This is against all rules surely? >>>>> >>>>>Regards >>>>> >>>> Rek 
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#3
09-02-2007, 06:41 AM
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Re: PokerStars say you can break their rules
cash games and 2 left you can say what you like. In tourneys - no.
There is no dispute here - Stars admit the rules were broken but it still doesn't seem to matter. That is the point
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#4
09-02-2007, 06:45 AM
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Re: PokerStars say you can break their rules
I understand your disappointment with the Stars response to your complaint.
The fact that the actual cards may have little-to-no bearing on the final outcome does not change the fact that the big stack breached the rules in one of the worst ways possible (and outright cheated in my view). And such actions will hurt you in the long-run, if this situation is played over and over again. I feel that your buy-in should at very least be returned. What the actual cards are in this hand should not even be a consideration, as a breach of rules is still a breach of rules. In other words, they should not excuse this breach of rules just because the cards didn't really affect the outcome in this instance. Edit: I have also sent an e-mail to Pokerstars, so hopefully they can review this case in support of you.
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#5
09-02-2007, 06:55 AM
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Re: PokerStars say you can break their rules
I think Stars handled it very well.
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#7
09-02-2007, 07:13 AM
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Re: PokerStars say you can break their rules
Snitches get doomswitches.
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#8
09-02-2007, 08:58 AM
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Re: PokerStars say you can break their rules
Am I reading this right? Two people are in a hand, the big stack says something like "fold I have you beat with a full house" and the other stack folds out?
Whats to say he wasn't bluffing? Would you have reported it if he said it to you? Would you have reported it if you hadn't bubbled? This just doesn't make any sense, people often say they have all sorts of hands but it's just some dumb trash talk.
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