Lakers and Bulls discussing Kobe trade daily

[Green Kool Aid]

wow v generous of luol.

[Vyse]

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meh.. we're saying different things. Or rather, your argument doesn't really support your claim that "Duhon is way better to play with Kobe than Hinrich for a ton of reasons."

I think it's obvious Deng + Kobe is better than Hinrich + Kobe. That's the ideal scenario. However, it's obvious that a backcourt of Hinrich + Kobe is much better than Duhon + Kobe. Duhon's a good backup. He's not a starter.

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The Lakers will take Deng in a trade. They are balking at not taking Deng in a trade. What trade would they take that doesn't involve Deng? Hinrich / Gordon is a good bet, maybe TT as well. Hence the point of this whole argument: playing around Kobe what would you rather have.

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The money point doesn't make much sense, because Deng is going to be commanding a lot of cash soon (he hasn't signed a contract yet, right?).

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Actually it makes a ton of sense. The Bulls can't afford everyone. They're going to have to make sacrifices. I'd sacrifice Hinrich waay waay way wayway before Deng. Wouldn't you? They're not keeping everyone. Ditching Hinrich = money to afford Deng and you get Deng + Kobe.

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Probably more than Hinrich.

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Apparently not.

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And your point about Kobe dominating the ball negatively affecting Hinrich holds true for Deng, too, if not more so.[/qjuote]

Fortunately Deng is pretty efficient and is much more gifted at scoring / impacting the game in other ways than Hinrich. Playing with Kobe / any amazing wing player deepmhasizes the importance of the PG position. So Hinrich makes perfect sense to trade.

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At least Hinrich can knock down 3s off of Kobe penetration. Deng is more of a slasher/midrange guy.

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It's a good thing Duhon can do that, too. And Nocioni. And probably Thabo given time.

[Fonkey123]

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wow v generous of luol.

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His overall character cause bulls fans to [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] him very much; whereas, fans of other teams don't really see the little things in Deng that might cause us to "overrate" him. While I highly doubt he'll ever become a superstar, his character essentially makes him a lock to be a very very good player for a very very long time barring an insane injury/accident.

[Fonkey123]

Vyse, why do you assume the bulls can't keep everyone?

Deng and Gordon are the only ones left to sign, at least in the near future, and they have bird rights on both.

edit they're also in the 3rd largest market and have TONS of revenue if they get to the ECF this year I think Reinsdorf will definitely go into luxury land.

[Vyse]

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Vyse, why do you assume the bulls can't keep everyone?

Deng and Gordon are the only ones left to sign, at least in the near future, and they have bird rights on both.

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Because four 10+ million players on a team = the salary cap? No flexibility? Stuck in "very good" but "not good enough"?

Right now the Bulls are already at 49.3 million... Kobe is making like 21 mil per for four years.

[Fonkey123]

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Vyse, why do you assume the bulls can't keep everyone?

Deng and Gordon are the only ones left to sign, at least in the near future, and they have bird rights on both.

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Because four 10+ million players on a team = the salary cap? No flexibility? Stuck in "very good" but "not good enough"?

Right now the Bulls are already at 49.3 million... Kobe is making like 21 mil per for four years.

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Yeah, that's a question that management has to answer. If Reinsdorf believes they are a championship contender he'll sign all of them. They'll have a MLE to fill any small leak, but if they all get signed that's the team they're going to roll out onto the court for the foreseable future.

Wallace's contract is edit I meant Frontloaded lol meaning his pay decreases. I really don't want to look through any rosters right now, but I would imagine the bulls wouldn't be the only team that has 4 players 10mil+ (hinrich is 5 for 48 but I'll round that up to 5/50 for the sake of argument). Knicks don't count either [img]/images/graemlins/smile.gif[/img]

[kidcolin]

vyse,

you're taking this argument is all sorts of weird directions. You can't say "trade Hinrich for money reasons" without acknowledging that Deng will be commanding similar/slightly more money.

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Actually it makes a ton of sense. The Bulls can't afford everyone. They're going to have to make sacrifices. I'd sacrifice Hinrich waay waay way wayway before Deng. Wouldn't you? They're not keeping everyone. Ditching Hinrich = money to afford Deng and you get Deng + Kobe.

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Yeah.. this is plainly obvious. We know this. Everyone's pretty much in agreement about this. It's just nice to know that if the Lakers demand Deng (as they should IMO), and can still put together a good deal, that you've got an awesome frickin' backcourt, not an awesome player + Chris Duhon. But of course if keeping Deng and getting Kobe is an option, and the Bulls aren't giving up Noah, Thomas, AND picks, then sweet deal.

[L'ennemi.]

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Duhon is way better to play with Kobe than Hinrich for a ton of reasons. Here's why:

-- Trading Hinrich = you give him up at his full value while w/ Kobe he's going to lose some because Hinrich shoots too much (13.3 FGA). That's more FGA's than Lamar Odom, probably about even once you adjust for FTs.

-- We're assuming you keep Deng when you trade Hinrich.

-- Duhon's D > Hinrich. Duhon's usage level is quite low, but he still does everything he needs to do to fit in perfectly: great D, hit open 3s/shots, and low TOs. Hinrich does most of these things well for a PG but overall simply uses too many possessions.

-- Money saved. Hinrich: 9.5 mil/year for next five. Duhon: 3.2 mil this year, FA but won't come close to 9.5 mil; more like the MLE (5.5 mil) or less. Duhon's also one year younger.

The money saved is also extremely important to give the Bulls more flexibility / make sure they keep their young role-players at reasonable contracts.

Kobe dominates the ball so much that what makes Hinrich better than Duhon and a really good PG -- can play 35+ minutes at point, handle the ball a lot, and keep his TOs low and overall be pretty efficient -- is diminished because Kobe can and will dominate the ball a lot more. So you're no longer getting $9.5 million of value out of Hinrich.

Again, Duhon + Kobe + Deng + Nocioni + Wallace >> Hinrich + Kobe + Nocioni + Noah + Wallace

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it's better to keep deng than hinrich, mostly because deng has much more upside. But the difference last year was not huge and hinrich was as valuable to the bulls as Deng in my opnion.
You 're clearly overrating duhon, who is just a good backup. And you're really really wrong if you think he is a better defender than hinrich, who was probably the best defensive guard last year.
Andthere is nothing wrong with playing Kobe alongside a real point guard, skiles is probably not gonna play the triangle. it's good he can take some of the offensive load off Kobe, as he would be able to focus more on D
kobe +hinrich=best defensive backcourt in the league by a wide margin.
You're right about the salaries though.
Still,sI'm convinced that the bulls won't make any deal if they have to add either hinrich or deng to Gordon

[Vyse]

Well, these are the long-term contracts:

Hinrich: 9.5 mil for five (frontloaded)
Wallace: 44 mil / 3 years (frontloaded)
Gordon: 10 mil/yr for 5-6 years
Deng: 11 mil/yr for 5-6 years
Nocioni: 7.6 mil/yr for 5 years

That's about 51 million for a starting five. But that leaves Duhon / Thabo / Tyrus. Basically if they either stand pat or trade for Kobe management must be willing to go into luxury tax land because they'll still need 2 pieces to be the best team in the league.

[KLJ]

Vyse are you leveling?

The Bulls couldn't care less if they go over the cap, so long as they're winning. And they can easily resign Deng and Gordon because, as Fonkey pointed out, they can use the Bird exception on both.