USS Liberty: Accident or Cover-up?

[bills217]

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But did they they know the ship belonged to their most important international ally, and one of the strongest military nations in the world and decided to attack it while they were fighting an outnumbered war against 3 other countries?

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Well if they did the plan worked like a charm!

[bills217]

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misinterpretation of information/cues

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[iron81]

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Honestly, I think the Israelis were to busy those 6 days to cook up some crazy scheme. The 6-day war as setting is as 'good' as it gets to make for mistakes like this. Chaos, nervousness, itchy triggerfingers, ample room for misinterpretation of information/cues and a strong willingness to open fire.

Is my 'version' an absolute? Nah, but I'll flow with the simple scenario.

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Seriously, don't say that the Liberty attack was an accident until you read the article I posted above. Afterwards, if you still believe it, I don't know what to say.

[Felix_Nietzsche]

Why would Israel attack their best ally in the world?
What would they gain from doing such an attack?

This conspiracy theory is so stupid.... Perhaps the US Army killed Pat Tillman on purpose so as to reap the military and propaganda benfits for doing so...... Yes?

[AlexM]

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Honestly, I think the Israelis were to busy those 6 days to cook up some crazy scheme. The 6-day war as setting is as 'good' as it gets to make for mistakes like this. Chaos, nervousness, itchy triggerfingers, ample room for misinterpretation of information/cues and a strong willingness to open fire.

Is my 'version' an absolute? Nah, but I'll flow with the simple scenario.

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Seriously, don't say that the Liberty attack was an accident until you read the article I posted above. Afterwards, if you still believe it, I don't know what to say.

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I would say the most likely scenario is that a spy from one of Israeli's opponents was in a position of power in Israel's government and ordered the attack to try and screw up our relations. This would mean that Israel didn't do it intentionally (which makes no sense) and it gives them a good reason to want a cover up as well.

[PLOlover]

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Why would Israel attack their best ally in the world?
What would they gain from doing such an attack?

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so you're saying the israelis never conducted a secret attack on their allies to blame it on their enemies?

hint: yes they did. and they admitted it.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lavon_Affair

[ChoicestHops]

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Why would Israel attack their best ally in the world?
What would they gain from doing such an attack?

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Quit being naive. Ever heard of the Lavon Affair? Isreal intentionally attacked U.S. and British targets in the 1950s with the purpose of blaming it on Egypt.

There is too much evidence of them also purposely attacking the Liberty. It's not a conspiracy when there's proof.

[tame_deuces]

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Honestly, I think the Israelis were to busy those 6 days to cook up some crazy scheme. The 6-day war as setting is as 'good' as it gets to make for mistakes like this. Chaos, nervousness, itchy triggerfingers, ample room for misinterpretation of information/cues and a strong willingness to open fire.

Is my 'version' an absolute? Nah, but I'll flow with the simple scenario.

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Seriously, don't say that the Liberty attack was an accident until you read the article I posted above. Afterwards, if you still believe it, I don't know what to say.

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No, I really don't think that article changes much thb - I simply don't think it realizes just how much goes on in terms of information traffic in wartime, and that there is actually an incredibly high potential for mistakes being done due to sheer _enormous_ amount of information that passes and failing to handle the load of it.

The article also leaves out important details on the torpedo attack that followed the air raid, this seems to be an attempt to build up under the 'purposeful' angle, and that takes away a lot from its credibility.

But if you twist the questions to 'Should they have realized?' based on the information available, you can still build a very interesting case. It is not uncommon to attempt to cloud up poor judgment and inefficiency in situations like these.

[bills217]

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Honestly, I think the Israelis were to busy those 6 days to cook up some crazy scheme. The 6-day war as setting is as 'good' as it gets to make for mistakes like this. Chaos, nervousness, itchy triggerfingers, ample room for misinterpretation of information/cues and a strong willingness to open fire.

Is my 'version' an absolute? Nah, but I'll flow with the simple scenario.

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Seriously, don't say that the Liberty attack was an accident until you read the article I posted above. Afterwards, if you still believe it, I don't know what to say.

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No, I really don't think that article changes much thb - I simply don't think it realizes just how much goes on in terms of information traffic in wartime, and that there is actually an incredibly high potential for mistakes being done due to sheer _enormous_ amount of information that passes and failing to handle the load of it.

The article also leaves out important details on the torpedo attack that followed the air raid, this seems to be an attempt to build up under the 'purposeful' angle, and that takes away a lot from its credibility.

But if you twist the questions to 'Should they have realized?' based on the information available, you can still build a very interesting case. It is not uncommon to attempt to cloud up poor judgment and inefficiency in situations like these.



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I understand where you're coming from here - the wiki article mentioned that Israel has bombed one of its own installments on land the day before the Liberty attack in what was simply an accident.

But how you can say the Tribune article (you did read the Oct. 2 Tribune article, right?) doesn't change much? It contained far and away more convincing evidence than any other source I had read, almost to the point where any questions about motive become irrelevant, although in light of the Lavon Affair (which I didn't know about prior to this thread) it looks a lot more plausible.

The Tribune article contains multiple eyewitness testimonies of transcripts that clearly show Israeli pilots confirming the Liberty was American before firing (although in some cases they were reportedly hesitant). It makes even more sense in light of how the tapes were numbered, that the released tapes cover before and after the attack but not during, they contain blank spaces, etc. It's possible that these tapes still exist and are being withheld by the NSA - if so hopefully they will eventually come out.

According to Jim Ennes (Liberty survivor), a former Israeli pilot who was part of the Liberty attack was jailed for refusing to fire, and later approached Liberty survivors about the incident:

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Fifteen years after the attack, an Israeli pilot approached Liberty survivors and then held extensive interviews with former Congressman Paul N. (Pete) McCloskey about his role. According to this senior Israeli lead pilot, he recognized the Liberty as American immediately, so informed his headquarters, and was told to ignore the American flag and continue his attack. He refused to do so and returned to base, where he was arrested.

Later, a dual-citizen Israeli major told survivors that he was in an Israeli war room where he heard that pilot's radio report. The attacking pilots and everyone in the Israeli war room knew that they were attacking an American ship, the major said. He recanted the statement only after he received threatening phone calls from Israel.

The pilot's protests also were heard by radio monitors in the U.S. Embassy in Lebanon. Then-U.S. Ambassador to Lebanon Dwight Porter has confirmed this. Porter told his story to syndicated columnists Rowland Evans and Robert Novak and offered to submit to further questioning by authorities. Unfortunately, no one in the U.S. government has any interest in hearing these first-person accounts of Israeli treachery.

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http://www.washington-report.org/bac...93/9306019.htm

[Felix_Nietzsche]

A Key quote from the wiki article"
"The homemade bombs, consisting of bags containing acid placed over nitroglycerine, were inserted into books, and placed on the shelves of the libraries just before closing time. Several hours later, as the acid ate through the bags, the bombs would explode. They did little damage to the targets and caused no injuries or deaths."

The Israelis did not want any injuries or deaths hence the timing of the bomb blasts and for good reason. If the operation was discovered, these injuries/deaths would cause even greater harm to Anglo-Israeli relations. With the Lavon affair, the Israelis made a +EV play that failed. In hindsight, the Eisenhower administration were complete MORONS when they bullied the French/Brits to give the Suez back to Egypt. The Israelis had greater foresight than that dim witted Eisenhower... This was a case where the ends justified the means....but alas for the USA/UK...it failed. Giving up the Suez Canal was almost as dumb as Jimmy Carter giving away the Panamal Canal for NOTHING......

But with regard to the the Liberty incident, I still say this conspiracy theory is nonsense for the following reasons:
1. The Arabs at that time did not have much of a Navy. So trying to blame a naval encounter on the Arabs would be a tough sell.
2. The Israelis are very intelligent. The previous failed Lavon affair would make a second failed Lavon2 affair EXTREMLY -EV. The risks would FAR outweigh the benefits. Trying another incident like this after being caught in the previous bombings would be STUPID.
3. No one can provide a compelling motive for this incident. The motive in the Lavon incident was to keep the Suez canal from falling in the hands on Arab nationalists. So what was the motive here?

But my compliments for providing and intelligent post and citing the Lavon incident. It is nice to see an intelligent post in this forum....