OOP free card play

[yourface]

yea, that's the plan. Kx more likely, Ax perhaps. also PP hands if he can have them there.

[Oink]

Sorry, but I think its pretty bad. Just c/c c/f and get a free river fairly often. This will also spare you the grief of calling a flop 3-bet

[PokerSparky]

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Sorry, but I think its pretty bad. Just c/c c/f and get a free river fairly often. This will also spare you the grief of calling a flop 3-bet

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Why even c/c this flop?

[Oink]

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Sorry, but I think its pretty bad. Just c/c c/f and get a free river fairly often. This will also spare you the grief of calling a flop 3-bet

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Why even c/c this flop?

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5:1 isnt enough for the gutshot, but good things can happen to improve those odds

- He will check the turn with non-zero probability. Most good players will give up with worse hands after you call that flop and a lot of players will check behind a K as well. EDIT: and pp's as well.

- You will catch a Q or J which will be enough to c/c the turn hoping to improve or see a free SD.

[milesdyson]

it's not a free card play - it's really just a bluff.

i think in general that people are going to check turn and showdown enough that you can't bet the river UI if he checks turn behind. i have no proof about this really, i just think it. so i think the only way we're going to get this pot with the worst hand profitably is by check raising the flop.

he is rarely calling and folding the turn (only with QJ QT JT unless he wants "proof" with 55), so there's no point to bet the turn...

[UtzChips]

Well, flop brought 2 overcards. You don't have a backdoor flush draw, as you are offsuit. You do have a gutshot, 4 outs. If you catch one of your cards, you could be dominated.
You bet with nothing, and get called, so if he doesn't have an ace or king, he's chasing you down with something. Maybe 99?

So, what does it take for you to freakin give up? I mean, if you aren't willing to resign here, it would appear you are going to be fighting with most anything.....and you're a TAG? I'll never be good enough to meet your definition of a TAG player.

[yourface]

RESULTS VILLAIN CHECKS BEHING KC 9C ON TURN AND RIVER, YOURFACE IS A FTOP GENIUS

seriously though, noone answered the questions I asked but I really didn't see myself having any FE on the turn

[detruncate]

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bonus questions:

what is your range for calling my flop c/r here? assume a LAGTAGish image for me

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Ax, Kx, all broadways at least call. It's not out of the question that any of these 3-bet. Gutshots might hope to push out Kx or a pocket pair and/or take a free turn. Kx might hope to push out a better K, though this seems less likely. Or they might think it's for value vs a "laggy" opponent. Ax might raise for value, or might call and make a decision on the turn.

He has a tougher decision with underpairs. Your c/r could easily be a gutshot or a small pair hoping to push out a medium one. I'd be tempted to call JJ/TT/99/88, though I wouldn't like it much. Hopefully I improve or pick up more outs on the turn with JJ/TT.

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what do you do with those hands if I bet?

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Better hands that waited for the turn will obviously raise. Kx probably isn't going anywhere. Gutshots probably find a fold. Pairs might give it up and commence with the self hate for the flop call if they were going to fold the turn anyway.

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what do you do with them if I check?

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I'd check behind Kx. Getting checkraised again would suck and you are probably drawing to 4 outs or less when you're not ahead. Ax bets and makes a decision if you raise again. Gutshots take a free card.

Pairs are tough again. They should probably play this as if against the bottom of your range since they can easily fold to a raise, but given that you're giving up with PPs after you check there's less value in a bet. You do have quite a few outs against them when you're on a gutshot (though we're blocking some if we have JJ/TT). Meh, In the moment you'll probably get a lot of checks out of pairs that made it this far.

In sum, I was going to make a post the other day that said your line was probably worth a shot. You fold some pairs immediately and get a free card on the turn often enough vs hands you'd like one from.

My alternate line is c/c, c/f since we probably get some free turns vs pairs, but we probably get called by them on the river too often to bet the UI.

So the question comes down to how much increasing our fold equity will add to our overall expectation. Suffice it to say that I wouldn't make your line my default, but it's fine to mix it in sometimes in my opinion.