5CD MTT - Are you always capping it here?

[greggg230]

PokerStars Game #11195987802: Tournament #56065401, $5.00+$0.50 5 Card Draw Limit - Level VI (200/400) - 2007/07/29 - 08:54:58 (ET)
Table '56065401 3' 6-max Seat #2 is the button
Seat 1: Kellie*T (3285 in chips)
Seat 2: greggg230 (3440 in chips)
Seat 3: svtnmtn (1940 in chips)
Seat 4: König C.K. (2570 in chips)
Seat 5: gefreiter a (4435 in chips)
Seat 6: washurkiger (1105 in chips)
svtnmtn: posts small blind 100
König C.K.: posts big blind 200
*** DEALING HANDS ***
Dealt to greggg230 [J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]]
gefreiter a: raises 200 to 400
washurkiger: folds
Kellie*T: folds
greggg230: calls 400
svtnmtn: folds
König C.K.: calls 200
König C.K.: discards 1 card
gefreiter a: discards 1 card
greggg230: discards 1 card [K[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]]
Dealt to greggg230 [J[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] J[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]] [8[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]]
König C.K.: checks
gefreiter a: bets 400
greggg230: raises 400 to 800
König C.K.: folds
gefreiter a: raises 400 to 1200
greggg230: raises 400 to 1600
Betting is capped

Difficult to put him on a hand other than another full house. Do I just call the 3-bet?

Also, in another thread I posted recently where I started with kings up, the general advice was to 3-bet. I take it that it's not right to 3-bet ANY two pair. 3322x, for example. So, is JJ up good enough?

[Murakawa]

Difficult to put him on a hand other than another full house.

-No it's not.

Do I just call the 3-bet?

-Post draw? You should cap. You are ahead of half of the FH's, and all straights and flushs. Does he sometimes have a straightflush? yes, don't push his luck though.

Also, in another thread I posted recently where I started with kings up, the general advice was to 3-bet. I take it that it's not right to 3-bet ANY two pair. 3322x, for example. So, is JJ up good enough?

-yes

WHY?

-You're basically trying to isolate, because as soon as three players are in the pot, and assuming they have QQ-AA, no, you ain't no favorite no more. That's why low 2 pair is so weak. With J's up you want to be HU against a small 2 pair or a come draw, otherwise you'll lose 1 in 3 to a better 2 pair that come from a better pair or you're already crushed. Better to get it HU to 1 pair, 2 pair, or a draw. Plus you're reraising for value against his range, and don't want anyone else in the pot.

I don't usually give this [censored] out for free you know

[greggg230]

Well, the reason I didn't think he could have anything other than a FH is that I didn't think he would be semi-bluffing with a straight or flush draw from UTG. I didn't think of the possibility of him having an OESFD or something, though.

That's good advice about JJ up. What do you do if raiser is UTG and you're in BB, and you assume that anyone who called the initial raise will call the 3-bet (very rare at this level for someone to fold in that situation). I'm guessing I probably still have an equity edge, even if I'm not a favorite, so getting more money in the pot is a good thing.

[bigpooch]

Since this is a "donkament", capping on the end is best.
In a cash game, (unless it's maybe 1-2 or smaller) the
3-bet usually means they win most of the time against your
raise, i.e., they have AT LEAST a boat (if they don't, they
are simply "spewing").

In your spot, with JJ88K, it's a marginal reraise predraw
(at best) and highly depends on the range of the opener;
e.g., if he is opening with KK or any straight-flush draw,
your reraise is incorrect, but if his range is QQA and
includes not only straight flush draws but most A-high
flush draws, you should reraise. A bad feature about your
hand is that you hold a king, making it less likely that
the opener only started with a pair of kings.

If the situation was changed so that you were in the BB with
this same hand, the opener was utg and there was a cold
caller, as long as the cold caller doesn't frequently trap,
reraising makes much more sense. You obviously don't need
to have the best hand postdraw more than 50% of the time to
put in the third bet predraw, but you probably need a figure
more than 40% (it needs to be higher than 1/3 obviously)
because of the slight danger of a cap.

[Murakawa]

I have to disagree with you saying that JJ88K is a marginal reraise. If you just call then the BB is getting odds for straight and flush draws (I think). And I certainly don't want to give him those odds. I think it's more of an isolation play to reraise, and as you say in low stakes and donkaments i think his range is a lot of things less than j's up.

If you're going to play this hand I think you have to reraise or fold.

Now if you're in the BB then it becomes a "value" raise, but I think that cold caller will have Kings up or better (or make his come hand) a large enough percentage of the time that I don't even know if I'd do that. Bigpooch, maybe you can show numbers to prove me wrong, but one thing is for sure, they ain't folding.

I don't understand pooch how when your'e not in the BB it's a bad raise but in the BB is. Can you explain a bit more? (I'm not being patronizing I really want to know).

Either way I disagree with you because you need to isolate with your high two pair, and don't forget that his range, though lacking KK, includes all lower 2 pairs. I reraise to get the big blind OUT. And plus, if it does get capped, my post draw decision is MUCH easier. If it isn't capped, and your opponent draws three, and they bet out I guess most people would just fold but you have a decision. Same problem if they draw 1 then bet out (here it is often a faield flush draw). However, if you reraise and the betting is capped, and they draw 1 then you know to fold and save a small bet.

[bigpooch]

First, let me say the POSTDRAW chances are more relevant
than the predraw chances. The opener is unlikely to fold
anything but a very small two pairs (which he should!) or
a hand like 9922.

Of course, if you KNEW the BB had a legitimate draw (and
5432 ISN'T one of them) or QQ/KK/AA, then you don't want him
in. In my previous post, I expressed that if the opener's
range was KK+ (fairly liberal), JJ88K from the button (or
any other position) isn't worth reraising with. It's true
that if you were heads up with the opener (that has KK or
better), your postdraw chances I would estimate to be
between 50% and 55%, but there are three problems:

1) One of the blinds could have aces up or better and most
players would have a tough time laying down aces up even for
a reraise. Sometimes, one of them will cap it. In any
case, the postdraw chances including the blinds will be
slightly less (about 3 1/2% for each blind) which negates
being a slight favorite postdraw. Of course, you don't
necessarily have to be a favorite postdraw, but only need
for the play to have higher EV for your range (or specific
hand) over the alternative of calling.

2) The original opener could cap it with trips or better.
From your post, I gather you would call the 4-bet. The
better option (IMHO) would be to fold if you somehow didn't
intend to 3-bet and now are facing a 4th bet by the opener
when HU; of course, if you had 3-bet and if anyone else put
in the last raise, you must call. If you don't intend to
call a cap when HU, this is a good reason NOT to reraise.

3) This is a tournament, so chips don't have the same value.
Especially if you think you are one of the better players in
the tournament, you don't want to make (sub)marginal plays,
that may decrease your overall tournament EV. I think the
payout is in seats and there is some leftover money or FPPs
in these events, so there are multiple prizes. Of course,
if there is only one prize, this factor doesn't apply.


Also, I think on the button, you can't fold a hand such as
TT223 even if the raiser is from utg, but it's not good
enough to reraise with, unless the opener often opens very
light.

I think one way you can convince yourself of much of the
above is simply by dealing out a few hundred hands (or have
a computer program deal out a few hundreds of thousands of
hands for you!) and see which play is better.


In greggg230's previous post, he was talking about if he is
in the BB in a MULTIWAY pot. Obviously, if he were heads up
with the same hand in the BB, if it isn't a reraise from the
button (with the cutoff and hijack folding), it isn't
likely to be a reraise from the BB.

If the pot were 4-way, say there was a raise from UTG and
two players cold call, and you hold a hand in the BB that is
NOT even favored to be best postdraw, you can still think
about reraising if you have more than about a 1/3 chance of
having the best hand postdraw. In a 3-way pot, you would
want your chances postdraw to be above 40% (clearly bigger
than 1/3 but not as high as 1/2 obviously since it is a
3-way pot).