Dean Video: Bluff vs Llama

[DeathDonkey]

The reason to check/call this flop with any pair and CR the turn is because you get paid off every time. I don't think this play is profitable in a vacuum.

-DeathDonkey

[baronzeus]

i dont like this. llama will always call down because dean would have to have precisely Q high (QJ, QT, Q9 specifically) or KQ for this raise to make sense on the turn. dean and jut about everyone else i know will fastplay a 4 on this board 99% of the time.


bad spot to bluff

[baronzeus]

ok, i only like peeling K7hh here is if you are peeling most turns too because you think your K high is good. if you are calling to fold most turns (like if a 2 hits) you should just fold. you dotn have a bdfd and your bdsd is weak at best. your 7 out is also tainted because of opening up str8 possibilites for opponent.

in general with a bdfd here you can call flop and re-evaluate on the turn. now there are a bunch of cards that you can peel again (K, 7, heart, str8 cards, etc)

[gaming_mouse]

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ok, i only like peeling K7hh here is if you are peeling most turns too because you think your K high is good. if you are calling to fold most turns (like if a 2 hits) you should just fold. you dotn have a bdfd and your bdsd is weak at best. your 7 out is also tainted because of opening up str8 possibilites for opponent.

in general with a bdfd here you can call flop and re-evaluate on the turn. now there are a bunch of cards that you can peel again (K, 7, heart, str8 cards, etc)

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bz,

going back to my original question, would you agree that villain is not folding an ace here?

[baronzeus]

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ok, i only like peeling K7hh here is if you are peeling most turns too because you think your K high is good. if you are calling to fold most turns (like if a 2 hits) you should just fold. you dotn have a bdfd and your bdsd is weak at best. your 7 out is also tainted because of opening up str8 possibilites for opponent.

in general with a bdfd here you can call flop and re-evaluate on the turn. now there are a bunch of cards that you can peel again (K, 7, heart, str8 cards, etc)

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bz,

going back to my original question, would you agree that villain is not folding an ace here?

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if villain is good, not ever

[DpR]

FWIW, I do not agree with the logic that villian is betting a particularly wide range on the turn. Assume he has ace high, what is he putting dean on after only calling the flop? You'd think Dean would raise any type of draw here on a dry board.

Further, the reason any 4 gets fastplayed "99% of the time" is because the villian is going to check behind so much on this turn (with a hand that has any s.d. value). IMO, once villian bets the turn he either has a pair or he has a hand with no sd value at all. I think that makes a c/r with no pair the worst possible option.

Even when villian does have ace high, Dean's line is really believeable for the reasonas i stated.

[DpR]

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ok, i only like peeling K7hh here is if you are peeling most turns too because you think your K high is good. if you are calling to fold most turns (like if a 2 hits) you should just fold. you dotn have a bdfd and your bdsd is weak at best. your 7 out is also tainted because of opening up str8 possibilites for opponent.

in general with a bdfd here you can call flop and re-evaluate on the turn. now there are a bunch of cards that you can peel again (K, 7, heart, str8 cards, etc)

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bz,

going back to my original question, would you agree that villain is not folding an ace here?

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if villain is good, not ever

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You like a turn bet from villian with AT here? I think those types of hands are getting checked through most of the time.

[baronzeus]

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Further, the reason any 4 gets fastplayed "99% of the time" is because the villian is going to check behind so much on this turn (with a hand that has any s.d. value). IMO, once villian bets the turn he either has a pair or he has a hand with no sd value at all. I think that makes a c/r with no pair the worst possible option.

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i think this logic is wrong, and the reason a 4 is fastplayed is to encourage people to a) play back and b) call down lightly.


and lol@ checking behind AT, have you ever known a very good high stakes player to do this consistently? the reason good players cant do this is because a player who consistently checks behind everything on this turn will get eaten alive by people who peel with anything. you are essentially letting a player like me to see 2 cards for 1SB in a 5.5SB pot. and are giving up on a pot when you don't have A high.

[baronzeus]

also just to clarify things, against many opponents (those who do peel lightly here, which is about 60% of high stakes palyers) im betting any 2 on the turn

of course if i think my oppt is very tight and will fold this without A high or better then i'll just check behind and hope to spike something

[DpR]

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Further, the reason any 4 gets fastplayed "99% of the time" is because the villian is going to check behind so much on this turn (with a hand that has any s.d. value). IMO, once villian bets the turn he either has a pair or he has a hand with no sd value at all. I think that makes a c/r with no pair the worst possible option.

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i think this logic is wrong, and the reason a 4 is fastplayed is to encourage people to a) play back and b) call down lightly.


and lol@ checking behind AT, have you ever known a very good high stakes player to do this consistently? the reason good players cant do this is because a player who consistently checks behind everything on this turn will get eaten alive by people who peel with anything. you are essentially letting a player like me to see 2 cards for 1SB in a 5.5SB pot. and are giving up on a pot when you don't have A high.

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I disagree quite a bit. On the vast majority of flop of course you are betting a turn with ace high. But on this particular one I think it is a significant mistake. I'm not going to get into a whole discussion about it, but lets just say I am quite confident the logic you presented doesnt not apply in this case. Additionally, if my opponent was a player that would peel with total trash on this flop and be willing to make a play at it, I would know it. Of course, if I think I can bet the turn to induce a bluff and call down profitably, I would do do. However, I definitely do not think that is the case vs your average opponent.

Finally, I am never giving up a 5.5 BB pot. If I didn't have a hand I was calling a river lead with, I would always bet the turn. Of course villian will bet the turn with JT.

As far as the fast play, I agree with the reasons you stated. They are not however mutually exclusive from my reason - all three play in.