Will B&M rake go up again?

[Ghazban]

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On a related note, I think Vegas would be best served if MGM Mirage plans a super-card room on the scale of Commerce in City Center. Oddly consumer choice has stifled the market, a central location ala Commerce/Bike would help to power the poker economy more than it would hurt it at this stage. I know that my view on this mater would be unpopular, but in the long run I do think its better for poker than the current options we have.

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Could you expand on this? It is not obvious to me why a large, centrally located room would help the poker economy in Vegas.

[SellingtheDrama]

It would centralize the games, and because of economies of scale, it would help sustain and support games that currently have tepid or infrequent support (not Holdem, limits over 5/10L or 1/2NL).

These games are much easier to get going from a large congregated player base. Nowadays if you want to play a midlimit game such as say 15/30, you have to check 3-4 casinos to find the one spreading it today. That's alot of work for a donator to go through, and he may skip poker this trip.

Create a destination for him to go knowing he can play the 15/30 or 20/40 game he wants, and he'll happily go there.

[grdred944]

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Create a destination for him to go knowing he can play the 15/30 or 20/40 game he wants, and he'll happily go there.

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Exactly! While I would be concerned that customer service would take a major hit with just one or two mega rooms, the tradeoff of having action at all limits 24/7 is well worth it.

[pig4bill]

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"Simply stated, the poker player isn’t being charged enough for the entertainment experience," Awada continued. "Nowhere else in the casino can you play for hours at a cost of just a handful of dollars."

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Oh! What a fibber he is! I can get a gambling entertainment experience a lot cheaper than sitting at a poker table.

How much does the casino make from a craps player who stands at the table betting $5 on the pass line? They win about 1.4% of that $5 each point. Dunno how many points per hour a craps table averages, but it's not huge. 20? So they make 7 cents per point, 20 points per hour, or $1.40/hr from a craps player betting the minimum. Maybe $2/hr if they get closer to 30 points/hr? They make a lot more than that from every poker player using probably fewer resources to handle 'em.

Or I can sit in the Keno lounge and play a $1 ticket every 10 minutes. If they take 30% of that they're making $1.80/hr.

I'm less familliar with the speed at which bacarrat and pai-gow play, but someone sitting at a table betting the minimum isn't making the house very much.

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The difference is there may be a dozen people at a craps table, all losing the vig to the casino at the same time. Ditto the keno player, who's floor space requirement is only what it takes to fit a chair, about 2 square feet. Poker only rakes one pot per table.

[*TT*]

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Create a destination for him to go knowing he can play the 15/30 or 20/40 game he wants, and he'll happily go there.

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Exactly! While I would be concerned that customer service would take a major hit with just one or two mega rooms, the tradeoff of having action at all limits 24/7 is well worth it.

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depends what you call customer service. I think free drinks and comps aren't customer service, they are customer incentives - customer service is the best run room, the best floor staff, efficient brush system, and control of the games. For example Commerce, which is the model for my idea, has fantastic customer service. Yes its a dump (we have to ignore that for this discussion) compared to many Vegas rooms, but its run far better than any room you will find in Vegas and the game options are incredible!

[bav]

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The difference is there may be a dozen people at a craps table, all losing the vig to the casino at the same time. Ditto the keno player, who's floor space requirement is only what it takes to fit a chair, about 2 square feet. Poker only rakes one pot per table.

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12 craps players all putting $5 on the passline and rolling the dice with no other wagers would generate a sum total of maybe $30/hr. Last I noticed, poker tables rake about 3x that.

You're paying the house something in the vicinity of $10/hr to sit at a poker table. Awada's claim is there is nothing else you can do in the casino for that kinda price, and therefore they need to jack up the prices. That's blatantly false. Pure fabrication. A lie.

I stand by my math and my statement that Awada is FOS. There are other forms of gambling you can engage in that cost you less than poker.

Whether or not casinos could generate more revenue by fleecing the poker players, or whether they should even have poker tables, is another sorta debate. I was just addressing Awada's claim that poker is the cheapest source of gaming entertainment and his use of that claim as justification for boosting the vig. He needs to go make up another excuse.

Awada is CEO of a company that sells table games. Poker competes with him. Not sure why folks want to take advice from the boss of a table game peddler.

[Dennisa]

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"Simply stated, the poker player isn’t being charged enough for the entertainment experience," Awada continued. "Nowhere else in the casino can you play for hours at a cost of just a handful of dollars."

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Oh! What a fibber he is! I can get a gambling entertainment experience a lot cheaper than sitting at a poker table.

How much does the casino make from a craps player who stands at the table betting $5 on the pass line? They win about 1.4% of that $5 each point. Dunno how many points per hour a craps table averages, but it's not huge. 20? So they make 7 cents per point, 20 points per hour, or $1.40/hr from a craps player betting the minimum. Maybe $2/hr if they get closer to 30 points/hr? They make a lot more than that from every poker player using probably fewer resources to handle 'em.

Or I can sit in the Keno lounge and play a $1 ticket every 10 minutes. If they take 30% of that they're making $1.80/hr.

I'm less familliar with the speed at which bacarrat and pai-gow play, but someone sitting at a table betting the minimum isn't making the house very much.

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Of course you can, the difference is that the high limit craps player subsidizes the play of all the low rollers. The high limit poker player pays about the same rake that the low roller players

[bav]

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Of course you can, the difference is that the high limit craps player subsidizes the play of all the low rollers. The high limit poker player pays about the same rake that the low roller players

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Different argument.
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Simply stated, the poker player isn’t being charged enough for the entertainment experience," Awada continued. "Nowhere else in the casino can you play for hours at a cost of just a handful of dollars."

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That's the lie. He's saying poker players are being dreadfully undercharged because there is nothing as cheap they can do, and therefore the casinos should boost the rake and cut back the comps.

I already said, there are other debates we can have. Arguments over whether poker is a good use of space, whether the rake is inadequate, whether comps are too high. But don't use "nowhere else in the casino can you play for hours at a cost of just a handful of dollars" to justify it. You need to fall back on some other excuse.

[pig4bill]

From the perspective of the player, you're right, he's FOS. From the perspective of the casino, you're math is still a little off. On craps, there are seldom all $5 pass line bets. It's usually more, plus there are many other high-vig bets on the table being made. They make vig on every roll, not just the pass/no pass decision because people bet numbers, come box, etc.

[Ghazban]

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It would centralize the games, and because of economies of scale, it would help sustain and support games that currently have tepid or infrequent support (not Holdem, limits over 5/10L or 1/2NL).

These games are much easier to get going from a large congregated player base. Nowadays if you want to play a midlimit game such as say 15/30, you have to check 3-4 casinos to find the one spreading it today. That's alot of work for a donator to go through, and he may skip poker this trip.

Create a destination for him to go knowing he can play the 15/30 or 20/40 game he wants, and he'll happily go there.

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I'm not coninvced this would happen even if such a room were built. Is everybody playing midlimit (limit and NL) from the Bellagio suddenly going to move to the new gigantic room? What's their motivation? Venetian is trying (or has tried) to get these games and they just don't go. Why would they go in a brand-new gigantic room? If you closed all the individual rooms in town and opened up this mega-room, I think you'd get this effect for sure but I don't see why people would leave the room(s) that already spread the games they want to go to a new one just because it's large and centrally located.