How do you play the flop and turn against a good opponent?

[Toro de Rojo]

The BEST possible hand your opponent could have is K-Q-J-x with two hearts. You are still the favorite (albeit small) on the flop, even against his best possible hand. Bang away.

As played, check turn and expect opponent to bet on river. Hopefully the board will have paired and you'll have an easy decision. If the board doesn't pair, and opponent bets you're just going to have to go on instincts and reads.

[citanul]

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The thing is that by 3 betting, the way he was playing, I would say my fold equity is very huge. do people really want to win the hand right here with the stacks this size? I had no history with him that he was going to play a draw for all his chips. And for all I know, he would read correctly that a 3 bet means aces here. I do know he is smart enough then to not give me action with a bad draw.

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blech.

one point to be made is that IF you don't 3 bet the flop, i feel you MUST check behind on the turn.

what range of hands do you feel he checkraises the flop with? certainly this is the most important aspect of this hand, and hasn't really been discussed yet. i don't know why he would be so quick to put you on AA, having been in a once raised pot preflop. I should hope you are putting a fair amount of money in here with a pretty good range of hands, and that if you're going to say he's folding a ton of stuff here to the flop 3 bet you at least have a range picked out for him, and possibly 3 bet every time he raises.

[donkeykong2]

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yeah not 3betting this flop is really really dumb. I'm going to be 3betting here with alot of semi-bluff hands (any decent draw) and I'm for sure 3betting aces. You're basically trying to trap a small small percentage of his range (TT) at the risk of giving the entire rest of his range a free card that could kill you.


Not three betting here is super bad. Don't be fancy.

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i agree.
if your fold equity is so huge here if you 3 bet, you prly should 3 bet draws or anything in this spot too and not not 3 bet aces.
you could make a point for calling if you think he is bluffing with really bad hands here a lot.

[piiop]

I still think just calling the flop is fine.

If he has TT, 66, AT, a combo draw, or air and decided to c/r the flop, he's gonna fire again on the turn most of the time so you can raise. If you had 3bet, he folds all those hands except a good draw.

On the turn, you bet. If he has TT/66, he may decide to call thinking he can improve to beat our flush when he'll just get stacked. If he has a non-nut flush, he might fold thinking we have the nuts and fearing another bet on the river. Betting the turn also prevents him from hitting a str8 with something like KQJT/T987 no hearts. If he has hearts and doesn't fold, it's no big deal we've paid an ok price to fill up on the river and be able to check behind. (Unless of course you're feeling completely badass and want to bet the river too) And obv if he c/r's then we fold and are sad.

I think just calling flops, in general, when deep stacked is good.


Also, "because he's folding so much" does not mean you should 3bet draws in this spot. Cuz when you have the draw, it changes his range.

[banthis!]

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edit opps thought this thread was new didnt mean to bump it for week ago.

oh and I reraise flop. Since yo udidnt I'd bet fold the turn.

[iggymcfly]

It's kinda funny that I didn't come across this hand until now and then only in reference to you fighting with Ribbo. Honestly though, I think this is a good tricky line against an aggressive player. You're weak lead on the flop totally tricked me as I decided you had to have a weak draw and made a C/R whereas I could have easily folded to a pot-sized bet.

Also, if a blank comes off on the turn, I'll be firing again with almost my entire range and you could get it in way better against a draw in that spot. The fact that you have position makes it a lot easier for you to tell if I missed the turn too as I'm not going to bet any draws that I missed when you're repping a draw so strongly. Occasionally, you'll lose a little when I flop middle set or something, but in general, I think this is a very good line.

[Ribbo]

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It's kinda funny that I didn't come across this hand until now and then only in reference to you fighting with Ribbo. Honestly though, I think this is a good tricky line against an aggressive player. You're weak lead on the flop totally tricked me as I decided you had to have a weak draw and made a C/R whereas I could have easily folded to a pot-sized bet.

Also, if a blank comes off on the turn, I'll be firing again with almost my entire range and you could get it in way better against a draw in that spot. The fact that you have position makes it a lot easier for you to tell if I missed the turn too as I'm not going to bet any draws that I missed when you're repping a draw so strongly. Occasionally, you'll lose a little when I flop middle set or something, but in general, I think this is a very good line.

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Yet neither of you posted how the hand finished, very poor form. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[iggymcfly]

Troll checked behind on the turn. Then on the river, a jack of clubs came off completing a straight. The river went check/check and Troll won with his set of aces.

I had bottom two + gutshot on the flop but not the gutshot came on the river. KJT6 to be exact.

[southerndog]

I think this is a really great thread. I really think troll should have bet full pot on the flop. I also think iggy should have led the flop.

[Elrazor]

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I think this is a good tricky line against an aggressive player. You're weak lead on the flop totally tricked me as I decided you had to have a weak draw and made a C/R whereas I could have easily folded to a pot-sized bet.

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i think this is such an underused play - it has the advantage over pot bets of appearing like a weak bet, plus if you make this 2/3 pot bet when you miss you take down just as may pots as a PSB, but save that extra 1/3 when you get called/reraised