Frustrated at NL10

[Karrotstiks]

Well to most of you this post may seem fairly pathetic hah but here goes i guess...

Almost 3 months ago now I made an initial deposit of $50 into FTP with the intent of maybe trying my hand at poker... i knew the basics (tight preflop play, etc.) and understood the importance of bankroll management. I guess what i didn't understand however was that initial deposit wasn't much to get me started. Somehow i more or less managed to luckboxe my way into about a $100 BR. Since then i began to take poker a little more seriously and started trying to learn as much as possible. I began reading NLH Theory and Practice (Miller and Sklansky) and realized that there was a lot more to poker than i had previously thought. However, when i hit the tables and tried to apply the concepts i had read about, i found that i was starting to lose several buy ins and figured that those concepts were better applied in stakes significantly larger than NL10 (looking back the problem was probably due to poor evaluations of certain situations on my part). My BR had suffered and i was back down to my initial deposit amount. Playing a mix of Sng's and cash games i reeeeeaaallly slowly built my BR again but along the way i experienced A LOT of concerning swings. After about two months i had about $120 and started my 2 or 3 week long breakeven stretch. This was also when i found 2p2(about 1 month ago). Since then i have swung down to about 80 but through a 4th place finish in FTP's nightly $1 tourney was up to an all time high of $155. This was a week ago and i have already managed to donk my winnings off and am currently sitting at $100 again. Right now i'm feeling stuck, confused, and am lacking any kind of self confidence. Hearing about all the 2p2ers that beat all of the higher stakes games makes me wonder why it is so hard for me to beat the lowest limits that FT offers. So i guess the point of this long winded post is to ask a couple key questions that have been floating around my mind for a while now:

- Should i be playing cash even though i have to buy in half stacked in order to practice good BR management?

- Is it essential that i purchase tools like Poker Tracker or PaHUD at this point?

- In an attempt to become more positionally aware i have been raising a MUCH wider range of hands from the btn and CO position when folded to me(any two suited, Qx, Kx, Ax, connectors, one gap connectors down to 6-4, usually a little narrower from CO). Is this range too wide? Should i not be trying to make so many steals at these low of limits? After one C-bet post flop should i be shutting down?

- Is it profitable at 10NL to occasionally be playing draws aggressively? Are most players at 10NL not actively thinking enough for this to be +ev?

- What is the best way to build confidence during such a significant downswing?

- Should i just be playing straight ABC at this point and only altering my play style when i move up?

- What is the best advice to someone who wants to be a winning player in the micro limits?

Im sorry this is so long but i just can't seem to figure out what is wrong. I have tried adjusting my game in a number of ways but each time i seem to lose more. I know that me being a losing player at NL10 is assuredly not due to variance alone. If anyone could give me any basic tips that helped them beat the micros or share with me common problems players at the micros have it would be greatly appreciated. Again im sorry for the length but any help would be soooo helpful at this point. Not being able to beat the easiest game available has proabably been one of the most frustrating things ive ever experienced hah. Thanks again.

[DeuceSeven]

If you don't have rake back don't play small stakes cash games on ftp, their rake is killer. Move to Stars if you're playing NL10.

- Is it essential that i purchase tools like Poker Tracker or PaHUD at this point?

Poker tracker will help you improve your game at a faster rate, and pahud will help you if you multitable.

- In an attempt to become more positionally aware i have been raising a MUCH wider range of hands from the btn and CO position when folded to me(any two suited, Qx, Kx, Ax, connectors, one gap connectors down to 6-4, usually a little narrower from CO). Is this range too wide? Should i not be trying to make so many steals at these low of limits? After one C-bet post flop should i be shutting down?

As far as raising wide in lp, in general I like it but it depends on your opponents. And cbeting, again depends on your opponents.

- Is it profitable at 10NL to occasionally be playing draws aggressively? Are most players at 10NL not actively thinking enough for this to be +ev?

Playing draws aggressively, depends on who your playing, if it's a raised pot, and the texture of the flop.

- What is the best way to build confidence during such a significant downswing?

Head over to Stars, they have .01/.02 cash games, take some time off, post tons of trouble hands (poker tracker will help you with this).

- Should i just be playing straight ABC at this point and only altering my play style when i move up?

ABC poker will win you lots of money at micro nl cash as a basic strategy.

- What is the best advice to someone who wants to be a winning player in the micro limits?

Post lots of trouble hands, keep records, get involved in other people's post in the msnl forum, realize you won't be successful right away, if you aren't winning play no more than 2 tables and really concentrate on what your trying to accomplish with every decision.

[ElBandito]

Get rakeback set up.

- Is it essential that i purchase tools like Poker Tracker or PaHUD at this point?

It's not essential, but you could buy them with your winnings right now. I like the last poster's idea of heading to Stars, playing .01/.02 games. Set rakeback up when you join, buy the software, and work at it for a while.

- In an attempt to become more positionally aware i have been raising a MUCH wider range of hands from the btn and CO position when folded to me(any two suited, Qx, Kx, Ax, connectors, one gap connectors down to 6-4, usually a little narrower from CO). Is this range too wide? Should i not be trying to make so many steals at these low of limits? After one C-bet post flop should i be shutting down?

I've found that playing this type of positionally aware poker can be profitable, but it greatly increases variance. While building your bankroll, you might want to only be aggressive like this while you're sitting at a table with perfect conditions to do so.

- Is it profitable at 10NL to occasionally be playing draws aggressively? Are most players at 10NL not actively thinking enough for this to be +ev?

I don't, but I'm a nit. Sometimes I'll feel like gambling. Just be sure you'll get paid off with a big pot if you're drawing to a hand. If it's a small pot with one other person, why call a pot-sized bet on the flop with a flush draw?

- What is the best way to build confidence during such a significant downswing?

Smaller stakes is what does it for me. Make sure the buyins are relatively insignificant to your bankroll, and then focus on playing solid, consistent poker. This will enable you to play tons of hands- track your play and you'll eventually have a profitable sample. It will also reinforce the fact that you're looking to be a long-term profitable player.

- Should i just be playing straight ABC at this point and only altering my play style when i move up?

I think it's the best bet, but again, you'll find situations that are ripe for tricky plays, so don't stop thinking about every street. I play ABC poker, but if I smell weakness, I'll sometimes take a stab at the pot. Playing most of the time as a tight player gives you a table image that you can exploit during key situations.

- What is the best advice to someone who wants to be a winning player in the micro limits?

Patience! Wait for it. How often do you think people double their bankrolls? You increase your bankroll by 50%, and it doesn't seem like a huge accomplishment. It is, though. If you really want to develop a style that will win in the long term, you have to realize that it will be a long slow bankroll grind that dips sometimes, but will always get bigger eventually. Yeah, post lots of hands, analyze results, yada yada. If you can't manage your expectations, though, you won't be able to manage a bankroll. Everyone who goes busto does so because they couldn't win fast enough.

Good luck =D

[pzhon]

[ QUOTE ]

- Should i be playing cash even though i have to buy in half stacked in order to practice good BR management?


[/ QUOTE ]
Who told you that buying in half-stacked would allow you to practice good bankroll management? Discount any other advice from that source.

Buying in half-stacked to conserve your bankroll is like filling your car's tank half-way to conserve gas. You only get slightly better mileage because your car is slightly lighter. It doesn't cut the consumption (downswings) in half. If you could buy in for $1, this would not mean you could safely play NL $10 with a bankroll of $20.

It can be a good idea to buy in for half of a stack if you want to work on the types of decisions which are emphasized when the effective stack size is 50 big blinds, which happens when you play against people with 50 big blinds even when you later play with a deeper stack. It means you can correctly or almost correctly go to showdown more often, so you may learn more rapidly. It means the hand evaluations more closely resemble the hand evaluations in limit and in tournaments. However, don't expect buying in for 50 BB to cut your bankroll requirements in half. (On the flip side, buying in for more than 100 BB does not proportionately increase your bankroll requirements.)

The main problem is that you haven't been a winning player. A bankroll does not give you skills. You need to beat the game by a significant amount to overcome the rake, and it doesn't sound like you are doing it.

Also, your bankroll is not your balance. If you lose all of the money you have there, is it a disaster, or an inconvenience to replace it? Bankroll management theory is based on the assumption that losing it all is a disaster, but that's not accurate for most microstakes players.

[ QUOTE ]

- Is it essential that i purchase tools like Poker Tracker or PaHUD at this point?


[/ QUOTE ]
No. They will be good investments later, and you can download PT before registering it and import a few hundred hands before registering, but you don't need them to win.

[ QUOTE ]

- In an attempt to become more positionally aware i have been raising a MUCH wider range of hands from the btn and CO position when folded to me(any two suited, Qx, Kx, Ax, connectors, one gap connectors down to 6-4, usually a little narrower from CO). Is this range too wide?


[/ QUOTE ]
It's not necessarily too wide on the button (although it's likely to be too wide for the CO), but your reasoning is suspect. Raise the hands you think are profitable to raise, not to change your stats toward some ideal. If the table conditions do not favor raising with Q3o, don't do it.

[ QUOTE ]

Should i not be trying to make so many steals at these low of limits? After one C-bet post flop should i be shutting down?


[/ QUOTE ]
Poker is a battle for the dead money. One source of dead money is blinds you can steal. In low stakes games, it is more common that people will defend the blinds too often and poorly, and this source of dead money is more valuable than the blinds, if you are outplaying them postflop.

[ QUOTE ]

- Is it profitable at 10NL to occasionally be playing draws aggressively? Are most players at 10NL not actively thinking enough for this to be +ev?

[/ QUOTE ]
Some draws are favorites over weak made hands. Feel free to play those aggressively. In general, don't try to bluff calling stations, and semi-bluffs are part bluff.

[ QUOTE ]

- What is the best way to build confidence during such a significant downswing?


[/ QUOTE ]
Excellent question. Toughening your stomach against variance is useful for the long run. However, at the moment, you should not assume that you are losing or breaking even due to bad luck.

[ QUOTE ]

- Should i just be playing straight ABC at this point and only altering my play style when i move up?


[/ QUOTE ]
You should find some style that wins, and make sure you know why it wins. Playing ABC poker is more complicated than it sounds, but it might work. Do you know why it should work?

[ QUOTE ]

- What is the best advice to someone who wants to be a winning player in the micro limits?


[/ QUOTE ]
I'm not sure it is the best advice, but it is good to learn to crush these soft games before thinking of moving up.

[Karrotstiks]

thank you guys i think i may try buying PT and switching the to the stars .02 game and beating that for a long time until im comfortable enough to move back up... all the advice was much appreciated

[Donkenstein]

[ QUOTE ]
What is the best way to build confidence during such a significant downswing?

[/ QUOTE ]Be honest about how you are playing and not looking for results to tell you this. Concentrate on the quality of your play and not your bankroll. If you are on a downsing due to getting bad beat after bad beat then your bankroll isn't going to show you are playing good poker. Instead you may start thinking that your game is off and change it when really its on and its luck thats beating you not your opponents.

Nothing will stop the sting of a dwindling bankroll, but knowing that it is luck and not your game sure helps you keep on track and playing good poker.

[Hebel]

When i started at at nl10 i just kept losing and losing. Heres why:

1. I played way too many hands. Now, I play about a 17/13 style, which is way more nitty than I play at any other limit

2. FPS: fancy play syndrome. I kept trying to do the things that the pros did on tv. They dont work at nl10, so dont try.

3. cold calling raises: have you ever been in the bb with a10 off, and had someone from mp raise? I used to call and just c/f a missed flop. Huge leak. Now if i cant 3 bet i dont really play oop

the value in nl10 comes from value betting. So simply be extremely patient and vbet your made hands to death. people will call with things so ridiculous i have laughed at them for a good 15 minutes.