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  #21  
Old 11-30-2007, 01:34 PM
jfish jfish is offline
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Default Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?

i have tons of examples, but you should be focusing more on your overall gameplan than individual hands. it doesnt really matter if you made a cool 3bet bluff and it worked one time. at 5/10+ people raise cbets all the time so dealing with them is just a fact of life.
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  #22  
Old 11-30-2007, 04:58 PM
dagreez dagreez is offline
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Default Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?

[ QUOTE ]
its jsut a retardedly played hand and he probably has a big bunch of similar hands were he spewed off a buyin. he would never post those tho would he. that hand is completely TERRIBLE

[/ QUOTE ]

thanks for your thoughts but i basically disagree with everything you just said here.

1. i've floated oop like this maybe three times in my last 80k hands, with a read duh.

2. i'll admit ive spewed before, and spewed hard :sob:. how else do you know who you can triple barrel until you try it a few times, duh.

3. this hand isn't terrible. it's an exploitable line. how exploitable? it depends on how much villain is going to exploit it. if villain isn't going to exploit it by checking the turn, and is giving my flop call some respekt, which was my read, then i can exploit his b.s. flop raise. if he wants to exploit me back by shoving the river fine. he's adding another level to our history and the game evolves. I'm not scared of that, are you?
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  #23  
Old 11-30-2007, 05:16 PM
stinkpaw stinkpaw is offline
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Default Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?

[ QUOTE ]
i have tons of examples, but you should be focusing more on your overall gameplan than individual hands. it doesnt really matter if you made a cool 3bet bluff and it worked one time. at 5/10+ people raise cbets all the time so dealing with them is just a fact of life.

[/ QUOTE ]

Jfish, I know alot of this is situation dep., but can you give some general guidelines or at least the thought process you use when your c-bet gets raised in order to determine how to proceed?
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  #24  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:42 PM
jfish jfish is offline
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Default Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?

well i personally have a style that involves lots of flop 3bets so i tend to have a pretty wide value range as well as an appropriately wide bluff range.

if you dont value 3bet much, then you obv cant bluff much. people really really really underestimate balance in this game.
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  #25  
Old 11-30-2007, 08:52 PM
SEABEAST SEABEAST is offline
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Default Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?

yeah it's not like there is a quota you need to fill of this stuff. you shouldn't be looking to force it. like jfish said when you are playing against good aggressive players being able to hold your own is just something you need to learn how to do, but it needs to come naturally, and is just based on hand reading like anything else. if it's really obvious that a guy is likely to be bluffing you most of the time in a spot, respond accordingly. if it's not really obvious, you can fold and move on. if you find it hard to tell how likely villain is to be bluffing then you need to work on your handreading.
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  #26  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:12 PM
linuxrocks linuxrocks is offline
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Default Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?

At 400NL, I almost never find any one bluff raising c-bets on complete air. Some regulars do it with draws and like some one said, you have to understand their tendencies to figure out what to do. Folding, Calling or Shoving 100% of the time is obviously wrong. Most donks will just call with their top pair or worse pairs instead of raising.

600NL and above, c-bets are raised a lot, so it requires a different strategy. I tend to call and play the turn appropriately depending on the board. As jfish said, 3-betting is a good idea too with good enough frequency both for value and as bluffs.
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  #27  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:16 PM
Triumph36 Triumph36 is offline
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Default Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?

[ QUOTE ]
well i personally have a style that involves lots of flop 3bets so i tend to have a pretty wide value range as well as an appropriately wide bluff range.

if you dont value 3bet much, then you obv cant bluff much. people really really really underestimate balance in this game.

[/ QUOTE ]

i disagree, people really overestimate it in a lot of spots
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  #28  
Old 11-30-2007, 11:26 PM
PerDoom PerDoom is offline
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Default Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?

Funny that I was reading this thread when this hand happenned.

Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $939
Hero (BTN): $1,468
SB: $380
BB: $1,000

Pre-Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $30</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $95</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls $65

Flop: ($205) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $145</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $300</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1,373 and is All-In</font>, UTG folds

Results: $805 Pot ($2 Rake)
Hero mucked 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and WON $803 (+$408 NET)

Small check/raise seemed a little fishy and the guy is a lagtard so I have some outs.
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  #29  
Old 12-01-2007, 12:26 AM
linuxrocks linuxrocks is offline
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Default Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?

[ QUOTE ]
Funny that I was reading this thread when this hand happenned.

Poker Stars, $5/$10 NL Hold'em Cash Game, 4 Players
LeggoPoker.com - Hand History Converter

UTG: $939
Hero (BTN): $1,468
SB: $380
BB: $1,000

Pre-Flop: 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] dealt to Hero (BTN)
<font color="red">UTG raises to $30</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $95</font>, 2 folds, UTG calls $65

Flop: ($205) 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] (2 Players)
UTG checks, <font color="red">Hero bets $145</font>, <font color="red">UTG raises to $300</font>, <font color="red">Hero raises to $1,373 and is All-In</font>, UTG folds

Results: $805 Pot ($2 Rake)
Hero mucked 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 5[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] and WON $803 (+$408 NET)

Small check/raise seemed a little fishy and the guy is a lagtard so I have some outs.

[/ QUOTE ]

This is probably one of the easiest flops to bluff 3-bet especially after PF 3-bet. There are no obvious draws and villian is thinking either you have a big over-pair or set.

This is quite different from c-betting OOP and that requires more expertise. Imagine raising with 5 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6 [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] UTG+1, called by button. When you bet the 4[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 9[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] flop, you get raised, what do you do?
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  #30  
Old 12-01-2007, 12:44 AM
RollinHand RollinHand is offline
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Default Re: Post hands where your cbet is raised and you play back?

^^^Trick question?

Fold obv. [img]/images/graemlins/laugh.gif[/img]
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