NL Bots on Full Tilt

[jasonHoldEm]

link

[BluffTHIS!]

jasonH,

Awesome work.

[Alobar]

[ QUOTE ]
Guys, I made the post with the same explanations as are being developed on page 4.

This does not have to be a full blown bot, and most likely isn't. I really can't imagine how anyone could develop automatic turn and river play. This is most likely, as Noah said, one of those Rainkhan people. He's could be using a pre-flop/flop betting program that makes decisions in all the obvious situations (fold 37o, etc), possibly even c-betting on auto-pilot. The guy then takes over post-flop and in 3-bet situations.

Also, as someone else has pointed out, it would help to have PAHUD stats have a couple of decimals. If one guy after 100k hands is 14.24 and the other is 13.67, I think that's a huge difference. Then I could see it being a few friends playing together (maybe like a frat) and having one guy teach them. This would explain the discrepancy in bb/100 of the two players on the right (the right-most player being a loser). This would also be consistent with them playing at the same time and not playing on the same tables.

[/ QUOTE ]

I wanna meet these guys then and have then coach me. Because the fact they can play a 100K hands of breakeven poker and NOT tilt, is a super amazing skill and one I would pay someone to teach me. I woulda blown my brains out way before the 100K mark. Also the discipline to play in a room with a bunch of your buddies and always play the same, thats a unique ability.

unless of course maybe they arent poker bots, just actual real life robots sitting in front of the computer.

[NoahSD]

DWarrior,
A program that autofolds for you preflop is against the rules, FWIW. Also, he'd be playing with multiple screen names, which is also against the rules. The only possible way for this to not be against the rules is if it's multiple people in some kind of scenario that DJ Sensei explained.

FT should definitely be made aware of this and check it out.

However, I guess they were already, and now they're in a weird place. If they really did investigate this and confirm that this is just a group of guys with no life and little to no poker ability, they can't really just tell everybody that. They don't have the right to reveal info that their customers tell them privately.

So, what are they supposed to do now?

That said, this is really suspicious, so I'm not 100% anti the mob getting all pissed.

[nation]

All,

I know chuck, the owner of full_tilting. I hesitated to write anything on the subject because he didn't want to draw more attention, but you guys are harassing him at the tables, so might as well prove you guys wrong instead of ignoring it.

Chuck is not using any form of a bot. He plays on full_tilting, and his friends play on the other accounts. They come over, play from the same IP address on different computers, and play exactly the same because they chop up all the profits. They sit next to each other and help each other out with difficult decisions, which is perfectly within the terms and conditions of FTP.

They are hard core grinders. They sit there all day to grind low limits and turn a good profit. Because of some player accusing them of being a bot, their accounts were frozen for the past month and a half, and they lost out on all of that potential profit. However, Full Tilt completely exonerated all accounts associated with full_tilting of any wrong doing.

Again, they're not bots or anything illegal against Full Tilt's terms and conditions. They are simply dedicated grinders who have developed a preflop and postflop style, and never deviate from it unless they have to adjust. They hammer new players and adjust for the regulars.

Now you know why they play so similarly; they play exactly the same. Chuck is a good guy, and to be honest, doesn't even know how to configure his virus protection; I had to do it for him. They play next to each other for motivation and chop up profits to reduce variance. Coming in every day, grinding, and sharing in the highs and lows makes it an enjoyable experience for them and is why they're able to grind for so long every day. It's a couple friends just shooting the shtt and putting a jihad on the 200nl tables.

tl;dr: They're not bots and they are acting within Full Tilt's terms and conditions.

-nation

ps: chuck has requested that his pictures be taken down from this thread, so if one of the Zoo mods could satisfy that request, he'd appreciate it. thanks.

[SukitTrebek]

I'm getting caught up on the thread now and see the image is down. If I rehost it on another public site, it'll just crash again in a few hours, right?

If anyone wants to host it privately, pm me and we'll get it back up.

[MasterLJ]

[ QUOTE ]
All,

I know chuck, the owner of full_tilting. I hesitated to write anything on the subject because he didn't want to draw more attention, but you guys are harassing him at the tables, so might as well prove you guys wrong instead of ignoring it.

Chuck is not using any form of a bot. He plays on full_tilting, and his friends play on the other accounts. They come over, play from the same IP address on different computers, and play exactly the same because they chop up all the profits. They sit next to each other and help each other out with difficult decisions, which is perfectly within the terms and conditions of FTP.

They are hard core grinders. They sit there all day to grind low limits and turn a good profit. Because of some player accusing them of being a bot, their accounts were frozen for the past month and a half, and they lost out on all of that potential profit. However, Full Tilt completely exonerated all accounts associated with full_tilting of any wrong doing.

Again, they're not bots or anything illegal against Full Tilt's terms and conditions. They are simply dedicated grinders who have developed a preflop and postflop style, and never deviate from it unless they have to adjust. They hammer new players and adjust for the regulars.

Now you know why they play so similarly; they play exactly the same. Chuck is a good guy, and to be honest, doesn't even know how to configure his virus protection; I had to do it for him. They play next to each other for motivation and chop up profits to reduce variance. Coming every day, grinding, and sharing in the highs and lows makes it an enjoyable experience for them and is why they're able to grind for so long every day. It's a couple friends just shooting the shtt and putting a jihad on the 200nl tables.

tl;dr: They're not bots and they are acting within Full Tilt's terms and conditions.

-nation

ps: chuck has requested that his pictures be taken down from this thread, so if one of the Zoo mods could satisfy that request, he'd appreciate it. thanks.

[/ QUOTE ]

[LB_001]

"Over the next couple days, I started playing again and would observe the bots’ tendencies.
-First thing I noticed is simply how much they play. They played non-stop for several hours almost every day. They put in more hands than anyone else at 1/2. They are probably some of the highest volume players on the site at any game at any stakes.
-Next, I noticed that the three bots never ever ever ever sat at the same table. For players that play so often, this would obviously be highly unlikely even over short periods of time. Yet, they played every day for months without sitting at the same tables.
-All three accounts would sit down and get up at the same times.
-Their betsizing was the same. They would virtually always make a pf raise to the size of the pot, reraise to 3x the original raise, and always make a continuation bet of around 75% of the pot (regardless of the number of players or the flop texture).
-The bots would “think” excessively long times to make every single decision, even trivial ones. One hand: bot limps utg, fish minraises, six calls, back around to bot who takes 15 seconds before finally deciding to call getting like a million to one. Also, they would cbet almost every single flop yet they would still think for 10-15 seconds before they made the cbet, every single time.
-Occasionally, the timing went the other way. In one hand, I flopped TPNK HU against one of the bots. I c/c bets from the bot on flop and turn. On the river, I made an absurd blocking bet of $5 into a $60 pot just to see how the bot would react. The bot insta insta insta folds. The micro-second I clicked bet, the bot folded. Even if they had nothing, a person would still have to think for half a second to consider whether they should bluffraise my silly looking bet. After that hand I decided there wasn’t the slightest doubt, I was definitely playing against a computer.
-They never chatted (in the first several days I watched). This would change."



I think it's pretty obvious that all the accounts are operated by just 1 player since they never sit together and play at similar times, but I'm not convinced they're bot accounts. The owner is obviously at the computer a lot or all of the time since he is chatting and now seems to be playing differently. I'm not sure why the argument of he's looser in late position or folding to reraises or floats indicates he's a bot unless he's folding to extremely tiny bets consistently or something. Many players always bet around 75% of the pot as well. Some of the timing tells might apply but according to OP it was only over a few day period and the insta-folds once or twice could be just the guy clicking the check/fold button ahead of time. The guy could also be using a program to automate preflop actions since the actions are usually decided by hand strength/position and not much thinking involved so this could explain why it takes the same amount of time for him to act. Someone mentioned there's a program that automates preflop that some people use already, I guess it's up for debate whether that's fair or not.

Obviously something a little strange is going on since one guy is using 3 accounts instead of just 1. Not sure if there's a table limit or something at full tilt or if he's just a little nervous about getting an account busted or something. If they were 100% bots the guy could just leave them on excessive hours every day instead of just "several hours a day". Even if they were 100% computer controlled the guy wanted to monitor them rather frequently and was scared to leave them by themselves for long periods of time for fear of being exploited. I think another good indication of a bot would be how the player rebuys (i.e. does he instantly top off his stack no matter how small below the max buyin it drops or if there's a delay or a certain stack % threshold before rebuying).

edit: just saw Nation's post but I'm still not convinced that three different people would have almost exactly the same stats. It just seems extremely unlikely that they'd play so similarly over very large sample size. Also it's very strange that one account would log off and right after one of the other ones would log on unless they shared accounts, or that all three would play at the exact same time, I suppose it is possible though just a very strange setup.

[pokerrn72]

nation,
very nice work and thanks so much for posting.

the mob mentality was getting totally out of hand.

[1p0kerboy]

Nation,

You wouldn't happen to be a Pittsburgh fan, would you?