The Top Set dilemma

kurto · #1 08-28-2006, 05:05 PM

I'm confused.

Say you have KKxx. And the flop comes with 2 wheel cards. In or out of position... do you check it or bet it?
(1) ex Flop K34 (rainbow). There is a bet and a call in front of you. Do I want to be very aggressive here? Too often I bet here, everyone calls, a low card hits often making straight possibilities... all the lows go nuts and I'm unsure of where I'm at.

Same situation but now there's also 2 suits:
(2) Ex: Flop K [img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 3 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]4 [img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]
How does this change flop aggression? (in and oop)

Same situation but its not 2 wheel cards?
(3) Ex Flop of K82 (rainbow)? Because the straight is less likely, do I know play it more aggressively?

(In each case, I do NOT have a low draw...or the flush draw)

Habib Marwan · #2 08-28-2006, 05:23 PM

In hand 1 and hand 3, I'm looking to put every extra bet I can on that flop. In hand 2, the board is very scary, so maybe just call.

Cwichert · #3 08-28-2006, 05:54 PM

Hand 2 scares me as well, if I can see the turn cheap I will, otherwise dump it. Hand 1 and 3 I'll play more aggressively depending on position. If I'm EP I'll tend to bet this more often than not. If I'm last to act and its checked to me, I'll check it and bet the turn if the low/straight card doesn't come. Yes, I know I just gave a free card to all the low draws, but at the low limits I typically play noone throws away the low draw on the flop anyway. Ideally I'll get a safe turn card and someone else will bet it infront of me so I can raise. Keep in mind this is very weak tight and works much better at the lower limits. In better games good players will exploit this strategy.

Dire · #4 08-28-2006, 07:40 PM

Hands 1 and especially 2 I wait for the turn. You can get away cheaply on a bad card and there's a very good chance you'll be able to extract more value on a good card since lows will likely continue to bet.

Hand 3 is much more situational. I play based on the action and number of players. If there are many players or it seems other players like their hands then I will fastplay it. If there are few players and nobody seems to have much more than the nut low draw then I may wait for the turn and hope to get a big raise in. There is an exception being that if I'm facing a player who tends to donk out on the turn when making the nut low regardless of previous action then I will of course fast play it. Of course if you're out of position then things get even more difficult, but you're probably doing something wrong if you routinely find yourself out of position with KKxx in O8.

Cwichert · #5 08-28-2006, 09:05 PM

[ QUOTE ]
Hands 1 and especially 2 I wait for the turn. You can get away cheaply on a bad card and there's a very good chance you'll be able to extract more value on a good card since lows will likely continue to bet.

Hand 3 is much more situational. I play based on the action and number of players. If there are many players or it seems other players like their hands then I will fastplay it. If there are few players and nobody seems to have much more than the nut low draw then I may wait for the turn and hope to get a big raise in. There is an exception being that if I'm facing a player who tends to donk out on the turn when making the nut low regardless of previous action then I will of course fast play it. Of course if you're out of position then things get even more difficult, but you're probably doing something wrong if you routinely find yourself out of position with KKxx in O8.

[/ QUOTE ]

"but you're probably doing something wrong if you routinely find yourself out of position with KKxx in O8."

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Winner!

Habib Marwan · #6 08-28-2006, 09:13 PM

[ QUOTE ]
[ QUOTE ]
Hands 1 and especially 2 I wait for the turn. You can get away cheaply on a bad card and there's a very good chance you'll be able to extract more value on a good card since lows will likely continue to bet.

Hand 3 is much more situational. I play based on the action and number of players. If there are many players or it seems other players like their hands then I will fastplay it. If there are few players and nobody seems to have much more than the nut low draw then I may wait for the turn and hope to get a big raise in. There is an exception being that if I'm facing a player who tends to donk out on the turn when making the nut low regardless of previous action then I will of course fast play it. Of course if you're out of position then things get even more difficult, but you're probably doing something wrong if you routinely find yourself out of position with KKxx in O8.

[/ QUOTE ]

"but you're probably doing something wrong if you routinely find yourself out of position with KKxx in O8."

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Winner!

[/ QUOTE ]

I guess we should just leave the table when its our turn to post blinds.

kurto · #7 08-28-2006, 09:16 PM

I should mention that I play PL not 08.

Also, If I have KKxx in the sb and its limped, I'll complete. And obviously free BB.

niss · #8 08-28-2006, 09:49 PM

[ QUOTE ]
"but you're probably doing something wrong if you routinely find yourself out of position with KKxx in O8."

Ding, ding, ding, ding, ding. Winner!

[/ QUOTE ]

I don't agree with this at all.

Ray Zee · #9 08-28-2006, 11:37 PM

remember when its three way you are laying two to one on your bets to win half apot. when four you are getting even money. so more players make your top set better if you have to split the pot. if you get it head up you can win it all even with low cards coming as a single opponent doesnt always make a low against you. so you tend to do better in hands where you get lots of action or headup.
try to guess what you will be playing against and change your strategy for trips to fit that.
overall in medium tight games top set with no other draws wont win much money or will lose some out of position. in small stakes enough bad callers will keep it as a money maker.

wackjob · #10 08-29-2006, 02:37 AM

when playing multi-way in a pot that has 2 cards to a flush, you are going to do nothing by putting in an extra bet on the flop. the best time to raise is a safe turn where you still hold the nut hi and the pot is still multi-way.

on top of this, i'd never play KKxx that didn't have a quality low possibility, with the exception of the big blind. this hand is garbage even in the SB since you are out of position and you have 1 prayer: flop a set or boat.