L/C Help me. Lack of an afterlife leads me do depression.

[Subfallen]

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Fear of death is rarely the problem.

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I doubt death is really the source of your fear/discomfort.

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OMFG, I got something right!!

[Drag]

It used to bother me, but I came up with a quite simple logics, and I am ok with all this death issue now.

I'll try to explain my position, may be it could help.

First, it's not clear if it would happen, or at least not too soon. I have doubts about all these transhumanist idea, mostly about the time scale, but still I think there is some probability >1% that it could happen in my lifetime. I am professional scientists and I think that I do my best to move towards that goal. Honestly, I think, even if we increase the healty life-span by just 200 years it would be ok.

Second, if the death comes, it comes. If I did all I could and it still happened, c'est la vie. I am a bit fatalistic about that. There were lots of people who deserved to live more than me and who are dead, why should I be exceptional. (Think about Einstein, or any other great mind of the past.)

Third, I am in no hurry to come there. Before that I'd rather enjoy the good things, do what I like etc.

Fourth, there are things which are worse than death. For example, going irreversibly crazy. Or having a very big brain damage which would destroy someone as a person. I'd choose to die on my own if I would be able to make such a decision. On the other hand, if I went crazy and wouldn't be able to pull the trigger, it would be another person suffering, so if he wouldn't be able to stop it, it is his problem.

Fifth, this is just a bloody reality. No life after death, so we should adapt to it.

In essence, that's my view on the issue. When I go through hard times, I progressivale move downward the list. When I feel good, I don't normally go further than the first option. When I am severely depressed I can go down to the fourth.

[AWoodside]

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Those discussing the Transhumanist movement? Do you really think you'll be able to live forever? If no, what's the difference between living 75 years and 250 years? Or 75 and 1000?


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Forever is a bit hyperbolic when it is used. Even if we were to overcome natural aging and disease there are plenty of events I can envision that would lead to death, so I prefer to use the term indefinite. I don't exactly "believe" I can live forever. I think we're on the cusp of huge breakthroughs in medical technology (historically speaking, could be 20 years, could be 200) that will eventually allow humans to live indefinitely, and that there is a significant non-zero probability that people in my generation have a shot at reaching that point. Do I think it's the most likely outcome? Not really. I do think I can drastically shift my probability of making it by adopting a lifestyle which maximizes health, longevity, and wealth accumulation.

As for the difference between 50 years and 150 years, there isn't a difference in my mind in terms of any sort of grand, objective meaning. I simply enjoy living and have a strong preference for life vice death, so if I can get 100 more years of course I'll take it.

[willie24]

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I mean your consciousness in mondern science cannot even be explained by a physical means


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it is true the concept of consciousness is very poorly understood in cognitive science. my cog sci teachers just dismisses it with "I don't know what consciousness is".


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i suspect that the opposite relationship might be true: the physical world is created by consciousness.

i suggested this hypothesis in another thread, and someone gave me a link to the self-aware universe. i ordered it but haven't yet read it.

[Splendour]

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I am 29y/o.

I feel like I am near death, this feeling comes from my awareness of infinity, and the relation of my finite existence to it.

I also make this same relation to the life of my son and daughter who are combined aged <3.

I believe that when I die there is nothing. I also believe that the same is true for anyone I care about, and who cares about me.

The combination above seriously depresses me. I fear death, and I think about it several times daily, with increasing regularity to the point where it is starting to become a problem.

I am developing an alcohol dependancy that interests me, as it both helps me deal with the issue, while also bringing it forward due to the physical effects of consumption.

In short I am ferociously embracing a lifestyle that will reduce the exposure to the pain I currently feel.

I know I have no right to ask for advice/help under such terms, I just thought it would make for an interesting discussion amongst you that I may gain from. Nothing would please me more than finding a 'solution', and that is obviously my motive, but I am not sure that my condition is cureable.

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Why don't you do some things that raise your level of happiness. Alcohol is a depressant obv but ask a doctor if you can take St John's Wort (its an herbal remedy but check with your doctor it can have drug interactions) and start exercising to stimulate your endorphins. Really focus on how great your kids are in the small progresses they make. Kids are amazing and hilarious. Go rent some comedies to watch on tv. Listen to some great music. Pursue activities that break this negative stream of consciousness you are in.
You're allowed to enjoy life while you ponder the more important questions of the universe and becoming sad and dysfunctional won't help you ponder any better or help your family either.

[tame_deuces]

The easiest way to solve 80% of all depressions is regular eating, regular sleep and something to do (studies or a job).

As for anxiety of death, I'd suggest seeing a doctor. And from one who has studied psychology take this tip: Always see a medical doctor first and be _honest_. Death anxiety is not uncommon btw, so you are far from alone or weird in any way.

[Lestat]

Wow Spendour... An excellent post and I actually agree with EVERY word in it! I didn't think that was possible.

[hitch1978]

Thank you all for your excellent responses, there's allot for me to add to/comment on, so I'll try and keep it short - but may not succeed.

NotReady -

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I did find your post stirring, but as someone that lives in the logical, tangible world, please elaborate in a way that I can reach.


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I don't think Christianity is illogical. I think a universe without meaning is the definition of illogical.

As far as tangible, we have thousands of manuscripts of the Bible and in the Bible it tells us of the physical resurrection of Christ - He had a body, He could be touched, He ate food and spoke audibly. And the Bible tells us we will have a similar experience, be given a similar body.

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First, I must apologies for my post, it does not read as I intended.

What I mean is that I do not believe in Christianity, nor in the theory that Christ raised from the dead etc. What I meant was that if the quotes you made describe how you feel, or would help my understanding in some way, then putting John12,16 in fromt of them, or whatever, means nothing to me, and I would much rather gear it in your own words. I hope that makes sense.

The topic of my beliefs, and choices so associated, are readily up for discussion/debate, only not here as they are not pertinent to the subject.

Fortuna -

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It's an intellectual riddle, because the more you think about it the more your sense of scale of such things and comparsions become skewed, especially when you invoke infinity and the size of the Universe. Most people truly do lack the capability to think on such scales, and they are sometimes to be envied that bliss.


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I often think of everything in relation to the sizes of the infinitness of space and time. This is a big part (if not sole part) of the problem. I have said before that I geniunely believe I would be a happier person if I had 100% faith in god/jesus/heaven etc. but I am not afforded that choice due to the way my brain works.

Would I take it now, given everything I know/feel? Would I take the blue pill? (Was it the blue pill in the matrix? I can't remember) Quite likely I would.

Interesting side question - When my daughter asks me where her dead pet / distant relative went, what do I tell her? I was told heaven as a small child, and never really thought about it - is this the same as Santa Claus?

Foal -

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I genuinely beliive that if you could prove there was no free will I would polarize. I would either go out raping, or would never leave my bed.

^^ To me that is 100% logical. DUCY.

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No. Can you explain?

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This may belong in another thread, I dunno, but since I brought it up...

Basically my definition of free will may be off, I am still getting through re-reading Madnak's terrific response in the current free will thread, and I think when I have digested it thouroughly I will be clearer on the issue. I define it as 'I have no choice about my actions.'

If I have no choice about my actions, I cease to be able to influence them. If i cease to be able to influence them, there is no point trying, if there is no point in trying to influence my own actions then I may as well not bother.... I think I stay in bed, but I left the other option in there as you never know.

Looking back, I think the rapist example may be off, would hedonist be better?

mbillie1 -

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the value of life cannot be estimated

also, antidepressants help, and I'm not being funny.

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btw life necessarily has meaning, eg something provoked OP to make this post. the question is whether or not life has a given meaning. but life can be plenty meaningful without a given meaning. just try it sometime.

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You put 'the value of life cannot be estimated' in italics, and you finished a post with 'and I'm not being funny' which makes me think there is more to your first post than the throwaway comment it seems to me. I hope that doesn't sound rude, it isn't meant to. What I am saying is that you seem to be making a real point, and I seem to be missing it, elaborate? Type slowly for the hard of thinking please.

WRT your second post, and this is a general response to numerous replys, I never said my life is meaningless. There is great meaning to my life, from my daughter's perspective eg. And I have many moments of joy etc, but when I look at it from the perspective described in the OP I feel like it doesn't really matter.

I am aware that it is a contradiction, but I am talking about feelings, not rational thought, although the feelings do seem rational to me. I hope I'm making sense.

Do all people try and rationalise their fears? I don't try and rationalise my arachnaphobia.

Subfallen -

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I doubt death is really the source of your fear/discomfort.

You didn't exist for roughly 13.5 billion years of the universe's known lifetime. Does imagining that dark hitch1978-less time terrify you? Probably not. For 6-9 hours every day, you have little to no conscious awareness of your being. Does the idea of sleep terrify you? Probably not.

To me, inevitable death is a great comfort, so I certainly can't delve any deeper into the psychology of the matter. But the subject brings some Nietzsche to mind:

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The certain prospect of death could sweeten every life with a precious and fragrant drop of levity---and now you strange apothecary souls have turned it into an ill-tasting drop of poison that makes the whole of life repulsive.

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If he was wrong about this, why so?

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If I put a gun to your head and started counting down from 5, you would probably not feel great. It is the fear of my feelings at the end as much, if not more, that anything else. If I am not lucky enough to be taken out by a sniper with an instant kill, or die in my sleep, there is a very good chance I will know what is happening. I cannot put into words how badly thinking about that makes me feel.

It is also about 'ceasing to be', but the two are linked, becouse it will be my knowledge of my impending ceasing that drives the fear in the last moments. Sadness as well as fear. And my knowledge of that leads me to think about it far too much now.

WRT your quote. Would you consider the following a re-wording of it? - 'The fact life is finite could make it sweeter. But we instead spend all of life concentrating on the fact that death is coming, and it spoils life.' I think that's what it says. If so, I don't think I have to disagree with it.

Letsat -

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PRECISELY because you believe/know that there is no afterlife, there is really nothing to fear in death.

Imagine that there really was an afterlife... Now you'd have all kinds of things to worry about. Will the Supreme Creator like you enough? Or will He send you to an eternal dungeon where you will suffer, and writh, and cry in agony, forever and ever until the end of time? How scary is THAT? And even if you yourself pass the muster, you have all this to worry about for your friends, family and loved ones as well. No THAT should depress you!

But forunately, you're wise enough not to fall for all that crap. So what is there to be depressed about or afraid of when you die? Nothing... Absolutely nothing. Think about all the thousands of years before you were born. Was that so hard for you? In the year 1573 were you afraid? Depressed? Did you have any uncomfort at all? Didn't think so... The year 2203 will be exactly the same, as will all the years after that. But here's what you SHOULD do...

Make the most of your life now. Love your children. Spend time with them and your family. Enjoy every minute with them that you can. Yes, it will end as all things must do, but you won't know it, so there's nothing to fear. What you should fear is stagnating in life. Don't waste it!

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I think that the thing about fear of hell and such is a bit moot as it never enters my thinking. As for how I felt in 1573 and 2203, they are pretty well covered in a previous post by tshort - "Lestat, Subfallen

You bring up the argument of "Does imagining all the time before you existed terrify you?" Obviously not. If you can accurately describe everything as finitely existing in "space time," then from my perspective we only travel in one direction of time. The terrifying part is leaving (infinitely) the state where you have consciousness."

Again I have a more general point about your last paragraph. I have a busy life. I would guess that 100% of people I know would call me extrovert, happy, confident and positive. I enjoy spending time with friends, have fun at my job. Work ~70hrs/week as a bricklayer so get loads of excersize/sun. My diet could be improved, and I will work on that area. Play poker live twice a week at home games with friends etc etc. My life is full and fun so I don't think that's it.

yukoncpa -

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Hey Hitch, does this help at all?

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Holding on to what you want to believe is fine -- there's nothing wrong with making a choice in that regard. But you really shouldn't do it out of fear.

Your consciousness will remain every bit a part of reality, even in the most atheistic sense. The distinction between future, past, and present is somewhat misunderstood -- they're all a part of the same state of the universe. You should not think of death as "an event which causes you not to be" -- you should think of death (along with conception) more as a boundary to the little region of spacetime defining your existence. That corner of spacetime will always be yours; you do exist -- you have been granted reality along with the rest of the universe -- and nothing can ever change that.


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Metric

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Honestly? Yes. I believe that there may be a way I can make a few tweaks to my thinking that lead directly from this quote that may really help me. With work. Thankyou.

GaSSPaNiCC -

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Seeming as no one has asked this question yet, i'll be the first one to do so: Why are you so certain there is no afterlife? Seriously, just because you are an atheist does not mean you have to choose to disbelieve in an afterlife. One has never been proven or disproven, it is simply beyond the realm of science to prove or disprove. Please do not take someone's word face value by concluding there isn't one either. I mean your consciousness in mondern science cannot even be explained by a physical means, of course it eventually could be, but if you actually do research there are scientific studies in this line of work which suggest quite the opposite. Look up the Afterlife Experiments and the book Irreducible Mind, if you're interested and i think you'll be more then surprised.

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I do not rule anything out. I am open to any theory that has not been disproved. I looked at the evidence and chose to believe that what the evidence showed me was most likely. IMO the evidence is heavily skewed enough for me to believe I am probably correct enough of the time (EV talking here) that I can accept it as fact in terms of how I lead my life, while still remaining open to the idea that it may not be.

I will look up the nooks you suggest. I am never closed to exploring something.

Phil -

I will adress your points one at a time as you have got allot of content into few words and I don't really want to miss anything.

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Fear of death is rarely the problem. The problem is likely something else in your life that's causing you to focus on it.

There's a range of emotions we can feel in any given situation, all the way from utter despair to joy. There is usually a reason you feel one and not the other which is completely unrelated to the situation you're in. It may be a function of habits you've developed, lack of meaningful contact with others, boredom, lack of future plans, timelines developed when you were younger (causing you to freak out) and so on. None are more rational than any other - they're just a function of what's going on in our habits and belief systems, and if we want to change we have to manage these things.

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Reading your post, I was like, no that's fine, no, not that, then I got to the bolded part and was like, [censored]! I have lead a massively succesful life in terms of most things. I have worked in three countrys, succeded at everything I have attempted, academically, socialy and in my various careers. Until 2 years ago, I had a failed business which I have been paying off debts from since then, untill 2 years from now, which is why I must work 70hrs/week. It had done 3 things. 1) put a big dent in my imaginary life achievement timeline. 2) wasted a large portion of 4 prime years of my life. 3) working 70 hrs/week in a very physical job has taken it's toll physically.

That isn't everything, because I have always had these feelings, but the above may be bring them out more ferociously than ever before. There is a definate peak in activity.

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Forget death for a moment. It's completely out of your control. If you develop the wisdom to understand that, it ceases to be a concern. Instead focus on taking creative control of your life. If you make it challenging enough, managing your own life is very satisfying and rewarding - and fills a void that alcohol cannot.

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I can accept that death is out of my control, the wisdom to understand that is not of much value in and of itself IMHO.

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Finally, a bit of perspective. Imagine you live in a universe where you're given a brief period of time, with no guarantees, after which your consciousness is snuffed out for eternity. Given eternity to think about it and plan your time, what you do in such a world? Your considered answer to that question, taking your feelings into account and realizing the limits of your own power, should give you some kind of guide.

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I don't think I go at all, I just enjoy the eternity thinking about it? Wrong answer, right?

tshort -

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hitch,

I'll spare you the details of my pre-agnostic background, but just imagine the standard guy from growing up in Kansas. My parent's never really pushed religion on me and probably attend church ~10 times a year. Two years ago I was in a very similar state of depression as you (I'm 23 now).

One night it just hit me that I would cease exist after I died and my life was meaningless in the entire context of infinity. I had panic-attacks thinking about it until the point where I was going to puke. For weeks, it was like a song I couldn't get out of my ahead. Avoiding thinking about it was no use and the worst was trying to go to sleep without watching basically passing out. I had to fall asleep watching a movie or be drunk (which was the case 4-5 nights a week).

I developed this idea that humans could potentially live forever (or save my state of consciousness in some way forever). So, I got back into really good shape by eating healthy and working out 5-6 days a week. Regardless, I was really depressed inevitably thinking about my finite consciousness. I didn't do much for a while beyond work out, sleep, and kept drinking (yes this goes against getting healthy, but going out worked as a good anti-depressant). I also stopped caring about my responsibilities. I would pay rent like 2 weeks late even though I had plenty of money (and my parent's gave me rent money). It is impossible to understand for people who haven't been through depression (even though at the time I wouldn't label myself "depressed). I think the best term is "existential crisis" and other factors in your life can make the depression even worse.

How did things change?

At first, I worried only about the short-term. At that point I though life is ultimately meaningless. I started playing more hours of poker because it was easy to make a ton of money to blow on random stuff. I lost my fear of approaching a random attractive girl at the bar. I stopped being so serious about life. Before you know it, I was enjoying life again. Thoughts of death stopped concerning me... I was too busy living.

Do I still think about it in the way it originally hit me? Definitely on occasion. It still hits me on occasion and I have the minor panic attacks. Yes, these occasional fears are horrible. You learn how to practically deal with it. In some ways the occasional thoughts of death keep me grounded in the reality of life.

If this is something that is negatively effecting your life and family, seeking help might be a good idea. I've never had a worse time period in my life than the month or two where I was thinking about everything in relation to death. There is no easy and ultimate solution in my experience.

Infinite Existence Topic

Really think about the idea of living forever and you'll probably find it's a scary idea too.

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This is an excellent description of how I feel, thankyou for posting your experiences, and offering me hope. I am not quite at the 'rock bottom' you hit, but am not far behind, and am getting there fast.

DougShrapnel -

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A particular aspect that you also mentioned a bit when you talked about your wife, is that other people really can't share the grieving time with you becuase you are going thru this alone, and only in perception, not reality. Maybe having a mock funeral will help you, in some way. Although it does seem kinda silly to me. It is something that I would consider if I was in your shoes.

Depression is also a perfectly valid response to grief. It is a healthy part of the grief cycle: denial, anger, bargaining, depression and acceptance. I think you will find acceptance in time.

If certain myths and religions might help the process, i'd recommend gilgamesh.

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I don't think I could hold a funeral, that would just be wierd, and then I would have to verbalise my feelings to everyone I know.

I will explore the grief route you touched upon.

Would you care to elaborate on gilgamesh?

Drag -

Thank you for posting your thoughts. I certainly feel less alone since posting this, it seems quite common.

I agree with everything you say, but I cannot get my mind to work that way....

Splendour -

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Why don't you do some things that raise your level of happiness. Alcohol is a depressant obv but ask a doctor if you can take St John's Wort (its an herbal remedy but check with your doctor it can have drug interactions) and start exercising to stimulate your endorphins. Really focus on how great your kids are in the small progresses they make. Kids are amazing and hilarious. Go rent some comedies to watch on tv. Listen to some great music. Pursue activities that break this negative stream of consciousness you are in.
You're allowed to enjoy life while you ponder the more important questions of the universe and becoming sad and dysfunctional won't help you ponder any better or help your family either.

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Ty, great response. I am very active, but I will try and break routines I am in. I love spending time with my family, and I am usually genuinely joyful at these times. The situation I describe in the OP is not debilitating, or at least not outwardly.

I drink too much, but am not a drunk. I do not drink untill I pass out or anything, but when I have a few drinks I don't search for answers so deeply in this type of thing. Neither the drinking or the depression leads to me missing work, not playing with my kids, not telling my wife I love her and taking her out for dinner etc....

Deuces -

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As for anxiety of death, I'd suggest seeing a doctor. And from one who has studied psychology take this tip: Always see a medical doctor first and be _honest_. Death anxiety is not uncommon btw, so you are far from alone or weird in any way.


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I seriously want to see my doctor, but I don't even know his/her name. Serious question, how do you start that conversation? How do you even book an appointment, what do you say to the receptionist? I know I shouldn't be concerned with this, but I guess I have a bigger ego than I thought.

__________________________________________________ ______

Once again, thanks to all for the great responses. I'll just add the following if it helps -

[x] OCD (Mild)
[x] Addictive personality
[x] Internalises negative feelings emotions
[x] Inferiority complex

[chezlaw]

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Looking back, I think the rapist example may be off, would hedonist be better?

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okay but hedonism is a good thing so why does that bother you.

Hedonism is a good reason not to rape people (assuming you needed some reason to decide not to rape someone).

chez

[Lestat]

<font color="blue"> As for how I felt in 1573 and 2203, they are pretty well covered in a previous post by tshort - "Lestat, Subfallen </font>

I can certainly appreciate the difficulty of depression and don't mean to minimize it.

I sometimes feel like this, not when contemplating death, but the vastness of the universe! The reality of how insignificant our sun, planet, and in the end, we, are in relation to the entire cosmos is downright stupifying and enough throw me into this unbelievably stunned state.

But then I think of how incredibly lucky we all are to be a part of it, even if it is for just a flash in time. The odds that any one of us would come to experience conscious at all is insurmountably large. So I just try to be thankful that I got the chance.