Trbo Fergison Razz hand

[22riverrat22]

Tournament - Razz (200/400), Ante 30, Bring-In 50 (converter)

Hero: 6,195
Seat 2: 10,014
Seat 3: 5,932
Seat 4: 5,229
Seat 5: 1,289
Seat 6: 1,439
Seat 7: 5,512
Seat 8: 710

3rd Street - (1.20 SB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 2: xx xx 4[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls___folds
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___completes
Seat 4: xx xx K[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___brings-in___folds
Seat 5: xx xx 2[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 6: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___folds
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___calls___calls
Seat 8: xx xx T[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___folds
<font color="green"> ok initially i want to play a big pot v lots of oponents with this starter figuring im best and theres no need to tip my strength just yet so i flat call (seems like a way to reduce variance in Razz-- and i do FN hate the variance in razz-- still figuring the game out so feel free to point me to any online resources [maybe this is common knowledge])</font>
4th Street - (4.70 SB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

<font color="green"> Ok so here i bet the best board looking for folds and not as happy with my hand but its still got showdown potential </font>

5th Street - (3.85 BB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

<font color="green"> Ok bricked hardcore but they look crummy by comparison and the price went up so I bet against a possible T/drawing to a seven and a draw to a T </font>

6th Street - (6.85 BB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___checks

<font color="green"> obviously the best I can have is a T and im gona have to show down a hand or fold so with no actual or percieved edge here i check </font>

River - (6.85 BB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 8[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img]___raises
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] K[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] xx___bets___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] xx___calls___calls
<font color="green"> OK I made a T8532 and first to act bet out his T, T7 just calls and I took my whole time bar before I raised here thinking the aces made a T/are hoping to buy the pot, and no reraise means that the T7 didnt hit his 7. Completing what i had been representing, bluffing, crossed my mind but then i figured that theres a good chance I have the best hand and zero chance im going to have to call a 3rd bet with the worst of it so I raise and get the call call I was expecting </font>
Total pot: (12.85 BB - 5,140)

<font color="green"> So what do u think of how i played this Im just learning Razz so id appreciate the feedback I felt pretty good about this decision making but id really like to know what someone who knows the game well thinks.
Also if anyone wants to post any links to online resources for this game thatd b greatly appreciated
THX</font>

[Noir_Desir]

IMO you misplayed this hand pretty badly.

I think limping 3rd is okay with lots of your cards dead. That way you can get out cheaply if you dont catch well. Calling the completion from the A is clearly right too.

On 4th you catch a pair. I understand you want to conceal the fact that you've paired but you will never get the 76 to fold and with all the dead cards you are quite a bit behind. I think you should check and hope for a free card.

On 5th you catch an open pair. Still you wont get seat 7 to fold so this bet is pretty pointless. I understand you want to represent a good 4-card hand but seat 7 has already made clear that he likes his hand. Having called 4th street he will not fold on 5th with this board.

On 6th street you wisely give up on your bluff, only to raise your made T on 7th vs 2 opponents. Grantet, Seat 3's bet is stupid and seat 7 will call with a wide range, but i don't think you beat him with your T often enough or get him to lay down a better hand with your raise.

[RustyBrooks]

The really important thing to realize is that you are almost never as far ahead on 3rd as you think you are. You want to narrow the field to 1-2 opponents so that your edge actually MEANS something.

I think you misplayed this hand on nearly every street.

* Raise 3rd
* check-call or check-fold 4th - I think check-call is OK
* Fold 5th
* 6th is good!
* Do you see how you raised on 7th and everyone called anyway? call or fold 7th - I don't think it matters, you almost always lose there.

[betgo]

[ QUOTE ]
The really important thing to realize is that you are almost never as far ahead on 3rd as you think you are. You want to narrow the field to 1-2 opponents so that your edge actually MEANS something.

I think you misplayed this hand on nearly every street.

* Raise 3rd
* check-call or check-fold 4th - I think check-call is OK
* Fold 5th
* 6th is good!
* Do you see how you raised on 7th and everyone called anyway? call or fold 7th - I don't think it matters, you almost always lose there.

[/ QUOTE ]
I agree with this mostly. Raise 3rd. As played, I would probably limpreraise 3rd.

I like the bet on 4th. You don't want anyone to know you paired. You are not that far behind and may take the pot if the right cards hit.

5th and 7th are terrible.

[RustyBrooks]

If I raised 3rd, I would bet 4th also. Since I've under-represented my hand, I am not sure that betting 4th is going to do much good here. I wouldn't say I like a check-raise but at least if you can get it heads up you'll have a better chance of winning if you make some ridiculous crap low like a 9 or T, and you might take it down if you hit a low card on 5th.

Remember that getting 2 opponents to fold is very difficult. If each opponent individually will fold 1/2 the time to a single bet, both of them will only fold 1 time in 4. If each will fold only 1/3 of the time, both of them will fold only 1 in 9 times. Make the one with a T face 2 bets and get him the hell out of there. So give yourself a better chance by limiting the field, or gamble and hope to get the best hand.

Seat 7 played this hand kind of oddly. I'm guessing he does not have a quality 4 card hand on 4th, there's probably an 8 or a 9 in there. Or possibly he's bad at razz, or doesn't want to risk too many of his chips here.

[Praxising]

[ QUOTE ]

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls

<font color="green"> Ok so here i bet the best board looking for folds and not as happy with my hand but its still got showdown potential </font>

5th Street - (3.85 BB)

Hero: 5[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] 2[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 3[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img]___bets
Seat 3: xx xx A[img]/images/graemlins/heart.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/diamond.gif[/img] A[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___calls
Seat 7: xx xx 7[img]/images/graemlins/club.gif[/img] 6[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img] T[img]/images/graemlins/spade.gif[/img]___checks___calls

<font color="green"> Ok bricked hardcore but they look crummy by comparison and the price went up so I bet against a possible T/drawing to a seven and a draw to a T </font>


[/ QUOTE ]I'm for raising or limp/raising 3rd. Now, here, you don't have to bet to represent anything because you did that on 4th. And, if keeping down variance is a goal, checking is best because you can expect them to check also. If 7 bets out, well, you have a graceful folding option. And, betting here is almost an insult to your opponent, like Seat 7 can't figure out he has a better hand than you right now.

If you are new to Razz remember: folding is your friend. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[SGspecial]

[ QUOTE ]
If you are new to Razz remember: folding garbage hands is your friend. [img]/images/graemlins/grin.gif[/img]

[/ QUOTE ]
Had to FYP here. Also, remember that the gap between hands many villains are willing to bet with and the ones they are willing to call with when you've paired on board is about as wide as the Grand Canyon.

[22riverrat22]

Ive got a Q about 7th. If my river card is a 7 or lower do you feel my raise is better? I would have thought at that point that i was definitely best if i hit an ace or 4 and it would b a mistake not to bet.
Hero: 5 2 3 2 3 T (((A or 4 instead of 8)))___raises???

Seat 3: xx xx A T A K xx___bets___calls
he could have most of the wheel under but i just dont see it hapening very often especially since he bet the river quickly
Seat 7: xx xx 7 6 T 6 xx___calls___calls
I know he hasnt made a 7 or he wouldve raised but i admit that T76LL is his most likely holding and that has me

so if i make a great T (lol) like a T5 or T6 should/is it ok to raise here or to lead if it goes ckck to me on the river?

BTW the actual hands here were:
Seat 1: 22RiverRat22 showed [8h 5d 3h 2c 3c Tc 2h] and won (5,140) with T,8,5,3,2
Seat 3: showed [8c 7h Ah Td As Ks 3d] - T,8,7,3,A
Seat 7: showed [9d 4s 7c 6s Ts 6d 4c] - T,9,7,6,4
And i was feelin pretty cocky after that so i thought an educated opinion would be a good idea
THX all for your responses. and i know now that i got really lucky rather than making a good play

[RustyBrooks]

He could have a LOT of hands on 7th that he would not want to raise with that kick your ass, including better tens, 9s, and 8s.

And yeah, you got pretty lucky.

[22riverrat22]

and one other thing as far as limping to minimize variance my thinking (though quite possibly backwards and flawed and i just dont know yet) is that in the early stages of a tournament people gamble more/ there are more gamblers left so by limping your very good starters rather than completing and isolating youre gona have more action from more players and if u make a very strong hand it will b concealed. especially if others are controlling the betting
it just seems like if you are successfull in isolating, you are getting deadmoney in the middle of a pot between u and another player with a similar strength hand and one of u is gona brick. which one is 50/50 and if youre trying to bet one another out youre just increacing your variance not your profit
on the other hand if you make a 6 or wheel you want all the action u can get all the way down. the tournament premise that chips lost are more valuable than chips won seems to lend itself more to playing 4 to a wheel on 4th against 4 players rather than an a23 hu against an xx6 with 3 BB in the middle
I dunno gona have to snoop around this forum quite a bit more before i really figure out what i think